How much damage does running with no oil pressure do?

[Blake]

I've got a fresh AMC 360 that has about 1500 miles on a full rebuild. I have really good oil pressure and running napa premium 10w30 and AC/Delco oil filter.

I was up on Radical Hill and couldn't make it any further due to deep snow drifts, so I turned around. Backed up this very steep embankment because there is NO room on this trail.

As you can see the nose was pointed way down. The engine lost all oil pressure and the valves started chattering. I was forced to get it turned around and drive about 1 minute until I could find a place to level out. As soon as I was able to get the nose up, it developed oil pressure and the valves immediately quietened down.

At no point was the oil actually low.

I drove it all the way home (about 125 miles) with no problems. The engine runs like a top.

How much (if any) damage was likely done by running 1 minute with ZERO oil pressure?

http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachments/IMG00407-20100703-1604.jpg

[FSJ Guy]

Me, personally, I wouldn't sweat it. I wouldn't RECOMMEND doing it, but I doubt you killed anything. It doesn't sound like you were at WOT when this happened., right?

[Mark Wilde]

As long as it wasn't an extended period (sounds like it was only a minute or so) you should be okay. All the parts probably still had an oil coating even with no oil going to them for a short period. If the lifters quieted down and there's no knocking, run it! :drivin:

[Mark Wilde]

D'oh, beat me to it! Hi Ethan!

[Blake]

cool

I idled it down about 50 yards or so. I did rev it up a little to see if pressure developed.

So - my main question now is: How can I keep this from happening again? Is there some kind of better oiling system available? I want to run this thing vertical, when needed.

[Blake]

why was my post edited?

Last edited by Jeepstress : Today at 01:34 PM.

[joe]

cool

So - my main question now is: How can I keep this from happening again? Is there some kind of better oiling system available? I want to run this thing vertical, when needed.
I don't hardcore wheel but I was inclined to do stupid human tricks like trying to run a rig sitting on it's tail bone I look into running a dry sump system. Ain't gonna be cheap but if extremes are your goals then extreme costs are part of the entry fee. For less than extreme use baffeling the oil pan would prolly help some. Gonna depend on how long you plan on keeping the nose in the air.

[Murphy]

why was my post edited?

Last edited by Jeepstress : Today at 01:34 PM.
Oversized image?

If you run it dry enough for the lifters to clatter then you could spin some bearings. It doesn't sound like you did any damage or you would probably be able to hear it. Like Joe said, a dry sump is the best way but it is pretty expensive. Maybe an extra deep oil pan would help but then you might run into ground clearance issues. Or maybe a baffle in the sump of your oil pan to slow the drain away from the oil pickup? I don't even know if that is possible on our rigs.

[elij10travis]

i think jegs has a deep pan and then maybe you can get a new pickup for it at the same time womthing like that will prolly work

[skeletor]

it could be from the cj grill on a fsj...:D

just run an extra quart of oil, its not gonna hurt it. you could possibly have something blocking the oil pickup screen. is this on a good (non stock) guage?

[Murphy]

it could be from the cj grill on a fsj...:D
Good one. :thumbsup:

I missed where Joe suggested a baffle too. I was thinking a stock pan might not have the clearance for a more effective baffle, but if he suggested it maybe it does.

[Blake]

I don't hardcore wheel but I was inclined to do stupid human tricks like trying to run a rig sitting on it's tail bone I look into running a dry sump system. Ain't gonna be cheap but if extremes are your goals then extreme costs are part of the entry fee. For less than extreme use baffeling the oil pan would prolly help some. Gonna depend on how long you plan on keeping the nose in the air.


Stupid human tricks? I was turning around because the trail was blocked by snow. The trail is rated a 5 at the high end. http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=10

I don't think stock amc engines have this problem when the nose is in the air. Or at least not as bad. It seems the problem (for me, so far) is just when the nose is way down.

[Chris P.]

just run an extra quart of oil, its not gonna hurt it.

X2

I run an extra quart in all of my AMC engines.

[Gambler68]

X2

I run an extra quart in all of my AMC engines.

Did the same last oil change. Behaving fine so far.

Next time go up the hill faster :thumbsup:

[rocklaurence]

Recently, we lost the oil pump on our 360 and my son drove it that way a couple miles back-n-forth to work. We put in a new pump and everything seems OK. I suppose we took a few 100 miles off its life:cool:

[Blake]

Mine did it again.

Was driving down the rock quarry at the end of Moody Hill. Took the hardest line down with the intention of reversing back up :eek:

Stupid - yes :rolleyes:

Lost oil pressure on the way down, turned around and went back up. Pressure didn't come back and I decided that a 4BT is in my future anyway, so I drove it. Valves were chattering BAD.

Ended up driving about 45 minutes or so to get off the trail. No oil pressure AT ALL. Luckily I was at the top and could 'coast' down with the engine off most of the time. I didn't rev it up and let it idle as much as possible.

Got down to the pavement and continued to coast down as much as possible, popping the clutch to start it while moving. Valves sounded like they were falling out of the engine. All the sudden it developed oil pressure! Valves immediately quietened down and I drove it an hour home on the freeway. No problems, no knocking, no nothing. Ran perfect.

I've removed the oil pan and taken a peek. Everything looks good so far.

I'm looking forward to scrapping this engine and going with a 4bt. In the meantime, I'm gonna run the 360.

My question is: What EXACTLY should I check now that I have the oil pan off? All the visible cylinder walls looked good...

[FSJGirth]

I noticed the oil pressure on my 82' drops from time to time, it's almost like the gauge has a mind of it's own. I checked the oil and it's still full, so I have no clue. Sorry to sound so absent minded but I'm just not sure.

[FSJ Guy]

Interesting...

I'd pop a main bearing cap off and see what it looks like. Take a picture. I'm curious.

I've dropped my pressure to zero a few times, too. When the motor comes out in September/October, I'm going to tear it down and see what it looks like.

[710 Burner]

Are you sure the oil pick up is low in the bottom of the pan when assembled?

[threepiece188]

I would be most concerned about the cam and lifters.

[Greenfish]

cool



So - my main question now is: How can I keep this from happening again? Is there some kind of better oiling system available? I want to run this thing vertical, when needed.

Deep pan and deep sump pick up for the oil pump

[Greenfish]

Mine did it again.

Was driving down the rock quarry at the end of Moody Hill. Took the hardest line down with the intention of reversing back up :eek:

Stupid - yes :rolleyes:

Lost oil pressure on the way down, turned around and went back up. Pressure didn't come back and I decided that a 4BT is in my future anyway, so I drove it. Valves were chattering BAD.

Ended up driving about 45 minutes or so to get off the trail. No oil pressure AT ALL. Luckily I was at the top and could 'coast' down with the engine off most of the time. I didn't rev it up and let it idle as much as possible.

Got down to the pavement and continued to coast down as much as possible, popping the clutch to start it while moving. Valves sounded like they were falling out of the engine. All the sudden it developed oil pressure! Valves immediately quietened down and I drove it an hour home on the freeway. No problems, no knocking, no nothing. Ran perfect.

I've removed the oil pan and taken a peek. Everything looks good so far.

I'm looking forward to scrapping this engine and going with a 4bt. In the meantime, I'm gonna run the 360.

My question is: What EXACTLY should I check now that I have the oil pan off? All the visible cylinder walls looked good...

sounds like you may have a bad oil pump

[Billygoat]

Do you have the bumpers on the bottom of the pickup?
I've read with them missing it can suck to the bottom of the pan...
(someone please verify/decline that)

Also if it clattered that long I'd replace the pump gears for sure, a rebuild is like $15.

[tyrodtom]

They make a thing called a accusump, which is a pressurized canister with a rubber bladder and extra oil inside, when you oil pressure goes below a certain level, the air pressure in the bladder will maintain your oil pressure, they're about $200, several different sizes. That's a lot less than a dry sump system would cost you, and just a little more than what a modified stock pan would cost.

[Etcetera]

They make a thing called a accusump, which is a pressurized canister with a rubber bladder and extra oil inside, when you oil pressure goes below a certain level, the air pressure in the bladder will maintain your oil pressure, they're about $200, several different sizes. That's a lot less than a dry sump system would cost you, and just a little more than what a modified stock pan would cost.

I highly recommend the accusump. There is a 3 quart version, gives you some time to get out of a situation that would otherwise cause no oil pressure. That and trap doors and baffles in the sump go a long ways.

A side benefit of the accusump is you can get a solenoid valve for it that closes when engine is shut off, and opens when you turn the key thus preventing dry starts.

[Greenfish]

It sounds like you have a problem that needs to be fixed before you go putting an accumulator or accusump on your truck. I would have a look at the oil pump and the pick up in the pan as well. You shouldnt be just running out of oil like that. Its probably an easy fix.

The accusump or an accumulator is an insurance policy. Fix the problem first.

[Blake]

Well I removed the rear main bearing and found this. I don't think this is good right?

http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachments/IMG00601-20100810-2213.jpg

http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachments/IMG00602-20100810-2214.jpg


http://blakeoffroad.com/vps/Attachments/IMG00594-20100809-2128.jpg

I'm gonna try to remove the oil pump tomorrow and replace those gears. This engine has less than 5k on a full rebuild.

[FSJ Guy]

Well, you definitely need a new bearing, I'd think.

I really don't think it's the oil pump. I think it's just the extreme angle that you were at. I'm familiar with the rock quarry you were at.

Maybe it was low on oil and you didn't know it? <shrug>

Why did you pull the rear main seal? I can't see it in the photo of the crank.

[710 Burner]

I see it.

[fasteddy]

go buy some plastigauge and check the clearances. I think you need the green kind, but look up the stock clearance and go from there. I don't see scoring on the crank journal, so just some new bearings might do it. I'd also run a hefty dose of a molybdenum suflide additive through the oil (that's "moly"). It bonds to the metal with an extremely slick surface, and it's saved some of my motors in the past when I lost oil pressure.

[vintagetrks]

I was thinking he just lost the prime on the pump and it took a while to get it back. Hence the scored bearing. Those exteme angles for extended lengths of time IMHO would call for a diffrent oiling system.

[Kevin armstrong]

I bought a 78 wagoneer five years ago for $500.00 I only use it on the ranch where I live the oil pressure starts up at about 50 psi on a mechanical gauge, but when it warms up it goes to 0 at idle but increases when you give it gas. No strange noises and I have abused it many times.No noises at all. Runs real strong, never shifted out of low range and loves to rev and throw whatever the swampers come across. If it ever blows up, I will post the carnage. It has been my test gineua pig for quite a while

[Ristow]

the bearing looks fine. considering what you did the bearing looks great,as does the journal. the score is from a piece of debris-the piece can be seen- getting in there and embedding in the bearing,as it should. the wear looks minimal,if not for that embedded debris i'd but it back together. i don't believe you can buy a single main bearing,may be stuck getting a full set.

the pump should have came back online real quick. you may have a sticking relief valve.

[Blake]

ok so I put it all back together and cannot prime the pump - even after packing it with vaseline.

I guess my new pump is shot.

will be ordering a new one.

[Blake]

long string of failures on this build. It seems that more than half the stuff I buy for it fails soon after install.

maybe I should sell the J10 truggy and build a toyota? :fsj:

[Blake]

Well I got it put back together and running again!

She purrs like a kitten!

Going wheeling right now!

[ThisGuyUKnow]

Just to inspire confidence in Walmart,
I work in the tire lube express and there have been several occasions where someone for one reason or another has started a car without any oil in it at all. Normally it took much less than a minute to figure out the faux paux but as of yet no one has come back with a blown engine lol:D

[Blake]

Wheeled it last night. She ran good, but was missing. Pretty sure the timing was off (I literally threw it together and went wheeling), so I found TDC and going to get some new spark plugs as the ones I was using were old.

Did a compression check - all 8 were at 125. A couple were at 126 and a couple were at 124. Seems to be pretty good.

Gonna put it back together in a few and see how she runs.

I think I escaped death on this one...