Edelbrock intake and California

[81wag phil]

I was looking and found a Performer intake manifold for the 360 with the E.G.R. (#3731)port. The websight clams the manifold is not legal for pollution controled vehicles.
Has anyone tried to use this manifold and a sreet legal carb. like the #1400 and pass smog in California?

[M/Z]

I had an Edlebrock intake on my '73 Mach I. When I still had to get it smogged, they would take one look under the hood and tell me it did not pass the visual portion of the test. I would expect you would get the same results. Look for an intake that meets 50 state standards.

[RustyJeep]

Paint it AMC Blue, and grind off the Edelbrock script. I bet it'd pass then....IF you keep everything else stock looking.

[derf]

First off, the 1400 carb has a Chevy EGR system that you don't need for the 3731. The EGR on the AMC runs off a vacuum port from a regular 1405/1406 (or any other carb for that matter).

Second, I doubt you'd have a chance of passing the visual part of the inspection having a 4bbl carb on a vehicle that came with a 2bbl. The carb alone is a dead giveaway.

In order to pass the visual inspection, you must have the California Air Resources Board (CARB) Exception Order (EO) number for any aftermarket parts. Basically, that says that the manufacturer paid the Kalifornia bureaucrats to allow the part to pass inspection. The Edelbrock 1400 carb is only "smog legal" for Chevy engines in specific vehicles. The documentation on the CARB EO states which engines it is good for. No way it will pass with an AMC engine.

If you put the manifold and carbureator on, you can pass inspection if you take your vehicle to a smog referee. That's a bureaucrat that takes more of your money and makes an arbitrary judgement as to whether or not you will be allowed to run the non-approved equipment on your vehicle. You had better pass emissions by large margins in every category if you want to get passed that way. If the bureaucrat doesn't like you or for any other reason kills your application, you must return the vehicle to stock to pass emissions.

Ain't the United Socialist Counties of California wonderfull? I don't miss that place one bit. Here in Texas, they don't care how the fuel and air get in. They only care what comes out of the tailpipe and that's the whole point of emissions testing.

Another option is to find an inspection station where the inspector will turn a blind eye to the visual portion so long as you meet the tailpipe test. This usually involves a "portrait of Ben Franklin" ;) and a reference from someone he knows. However, this is illegal and not recommended.

A final option is to get a smog approved crate engine from one of the big 3 and swap that in there. Or, so long as the engine is newer than your Jeep, you can swap in a salvaged engine. TBI Chevy 350's are fairly common.

[Ralph]

Take a look at the engine bay of my J10. Cleverly disguised under all those vacuum, emissions, and fuel hoses is an EGR-equipped Edelbrock Performer 3731 intake manifold and a shiny 4-bbl Carter AFB-9635 carb. The smog pump works, and the AIR system is completely functional, right down to the teeny little Dynomax catalytic converter it pumps from. The decal on the air cleaner says "4-barrel 360," which makes for great camoflauge of the fact that a 4-bbl carb wasn't offered in that year and so would not be strictly emissions-compliant. Also, Edelbrock welded a tag on the driver-side header with the CARB exemption number for those parts.

My point is, if you actually keep all your emissions stuff, it would take much more than a cursory glance under the hood to fail a visual test. The examiner would first have to know that a 4-bbl carb wasn't an option for that year.

http://fs9.dotphoto.com/MemberImages/180113/i93D47AA2-08D9-4BF4-8A1C-773519C0AD10.jpg

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ralph ]</p>

[nfroio]

Speaking of this topic for California residents, does anyone know of a site that basically lists what you can do and cant do with our rigs for Kalifornia???

If I can't legally upgrade to a 4BBL, Carb/Intake combo, with an 87, what can I do?? Can I put any 88 or older engine into my rig, regardless of size and displacement??? I Need More Power!!!!

[GaWd]

I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal out of California's smog laws. I mean, a large majority of states have adopted laws based on our laws anyways. I doubt you can take a smog-controlled vehicle in any state and put in a Cad 500 motor with a 4bbl and no smog equipment.

Hang around car people, nfroio. They always know at least one smogger who will make sure that your car passes. It just takes $$.

Or, you can use Ralph's example and disguise your motor to look stock. Or you can swap out your 4bbl every 2 or 4 years. Or, you can just leave it as-si, and wait for 20 years until it's no longer a smog car smile.gif

Go get a 70-before truck if you'd like to have fun with a big, no-smog motor.

Sam

[Marvin Gates]

Or you can do what I did, I lived in Cal for 45 years and got so fed up with all of that stuff, I moved to Eastern Wa. Here you can put anything in anything and no one cares. There are no smog test except in Spokane, which is about a 30 sq. mile area. If you want to put a 500 Cad in a VW its no problem. But I realize that there is a lot of money to be made in Cal so you just have to figure what is more important to you!
Anyway, HAPPY MOTORING. :D :D :D MG

[derf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GaWd:
I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal out of California's smog laws. I mean, a large majority of states have adopted laws based on our laws anyways. I doubt you can take a smog-controlled vehicle in any state and put in a Cad 500 motor with a 4bbl and no smog equipment.<hr></blockquote>

Many states do not have smog inspections. In those states, you can pretty much do whatever you want without fear of getting caught by the smog police. Even in Texas, the smog inspections are done by county, based largely on popluation density. Here in Dallas/Fort Worth, I have to get a smog inspection. But if I move west one county, I don't have to worry about it because they do no emissions testing at all.

Many states that did adopt some of Californian laws didn't adopt the draconian CARB bureaucracy. Texas just wants to make sure you meet the tailpipe emissions standards. They don't care what aftermarket parts you put in your vehicle just so long as you pass the sniffer test. (disclaimer: They do want to make sure you have all of the original smog equipment or newer but they never check to see if it's actually hooked up and working properly.)

As has been discussed before, the nature of the CARB EO system makes it overly difficult for people to upgrade their vehicles to more modern equipment. As a reult, not as many people upgrade to better (i.e. cleaner burning) systems and that hurts the air quality in the long run. Yes, California has cleaned up their air. But this has happend in spite of CARB, not because of it.

[GaWd]

While I realize CARB laws suck, and are very limiting, they serve a purpose. Now, I haven't tripped all around the country to see the kinds of cars and their conditions, Etc, but I've been to Mexico. Mexico has no smog laws at all. 90% of all vehicles that pass you on the street belch out such nasty f-in exhaust that it's choking.

I'd much rather live in Cali with their smog laws than have no smog laws at all. they take the cars that are in such disrepair off the street, and they make summers here a bit more enjoyable when you can look across the Santa Clara Valley and see the hills.

One huge point that neither of you mentioned is that Cali has more density people-wise than at least 45 other states. More people, more cars, more emissions.

Oh, and derf, don't tell me that if you owned a 1991 Chevy truck that you'd "upgrade" to the newest motor and smog equipment. I wouldn't either. I'd end up going the other way and removing all the smog equipment.

Besides, you people have to deal with more "draconian" laws than we do here...yearly inspections for rust, tires, suspension, chipped glass, a blown tail light, Etc, Etc. That seems quite a bit more limiting than smog laws.

Sam

P.S.- You can put a 500 Cad motor in a VW just as long as it's 1970 or older.

[Don S]

......AMEN.....We used to have a safty inspection in Texas ... now they don't check for cock-eyed headlights. Wonder who elected thoses Burocats that run CARB .. BuroCats begat more BUROs ... think this has something to do with the Donkey Party :confused: Any how ..like Marvin...I got out of there,,I wasn't insane enough to keep up with the crowd :D :D tongue.gif ......DS..

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Don S ]</p>

[nfroio]

I guess my real question is, pursuant to this above statement:

"A final option is to get a smog approved crate engine from one of the big 3 and swap that in there. Or, so long as the engine is newer than your Jeep, you can swap in a salvaged engine. TBI Chevy 350's are fairly common."

Is this LEGAL is California, I am not interested in fooling the smog folks, or camoflauging my engine, I like to do things legally, its easier, and its the right thing to do. So, with that in mind, can I say take an engine out of an 2002 Corvette, and plop that bad boy into my rig, and be good to go???

Can I take a 426HEMI built after my rig was built and drop that in legally???

[nfroio]

I guess my real question is, pursuant to this above statement:

"A final option is to get a smog approved crate engine from one of the big 3 and swap that in there. Or, so long as the engine is newer than your Jeep, you can swap in a salvaged engine. TBI Chevy 350's are fairly common."

Is this LEGAL is California, I am not interested in fooling the smog folks, or camoflauging my engine, I like to do things legally, its easier, and its the right thing to do. So, with that in mind, can I say take an engine out of an 2002 Corvette, and plop that bad boy into my rig, and be good to go???

Can I take a 426HEMI built after my rig was built and drop that in legally???

[derf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GaWd:
While I realize CARB laws suck, and are very limiting, they serve a purpose. Now, I haven't tripped all around the country to see the kinds of cars and their conditions, Etc, but I've been to Mexico. Mexico has no smog laws at all. 90% of all vehicles that pass you on the street belch out such nasty f-in exhaust that it's choking.

I'd much rather live in Cali with their smog laws than have no smog laws at all. they take the cars that are in such disrepair off the street, and they make summers here a bit more enjoyable when you can look across the Santa Clara Valley and see the hills.

One huge point that neither of you mentioned is that Cali has more density people-wise than at least 45 other states. More people, more cars, more emissions.

Oh, and derf, don't tell me that if you owned a 1991 Chevy truck that you'd "upgrade" to the newest motor and smog equipment. I wouldn't either. I'd end up going the other way and removing all the smog equipment.

Besides, you people have to deal with more "draconian" laws than we do here...yearly inspections for rust, tires, suspension, chipped glass, a blown tail light, Etc, Etc. That seems quite a bit more limiting than smog laws.

Sam

P.S.- You can put a 500 Cad motor in a VW just as long as it's 1970 or older.<hr></blockquote>

Come on out to Texas. Here you will find that our vehicles (at least the ones in the densly populated urban centers) rarely smoke. And if they do, they don't stay on the street.

We do this without having an overly burdensome CARB like bureaucracy. Our rules state maximum allowed emissions for each make and model of vehicles and what emissions equipment (EGR, AIR, etc) needs to be on each vehicle. However, they don't care if I have a 4bbl carb vs a 2bbl carb or what kind of manifold I have. Just so long as I have an EGR setup on the manifold and the carb runs vacuum lines to all of the proper ports, I pass the visual. And with better emissions than the stock setup (due to improvements in the aftermarket parts over the years) I will polute less than someone who didn't upgrade from stock because he wasn't allowed to by some arbitrary rules made by bureaucrats.

As for upgrading the engine in a '91 chevy to a modern one, I would in a heartbeat. Modern EFI offers so many advantages over the TBI used back then. More power, broader torque curve, better emissions. I'd do it. But I don't have a Chevy and that means I can't just throw on a stock EFI system from a junkyard truck or stealership parts bins. With my AMC, I have to fabricate something and I don't have that much skill.

[GaWd]

Either way, Derf, I don't have too much problem with CARB laws. They certainly wouldn't drive me away from the state.

nfroio, AFAIK, you may place a newer smogged motor in your vehicle. Unfortunately, it will be a PITA dealing with the Smog Ref.

Call CARB, and then ask for a contact # for your local referee. He will know the law, draconian or not. Maybe you can just move to Texas? ;)

Sam

[nfroio]

Thanks GaWd, I will check into the CARB Referee in my area, as for Texas, I would not have a problem with it, alas, my wife would, and after 11 years, I've gotten kinda used to her, so, Northern Kookyfornia I will stay....

I have a line on both a LT1 and a 426 Race Engine, both that I can get my hands on, but, if I cant legally get them into my rig, its of no use, unless I sell her, and get a pre-'73 rig... hmmmmmmm

[81wag phil]

Thanks for all the info, maybe when I chang that leaky main bearing seal I'll mask the edelbrock intake w/ amc blue paint. I don't see the big deal as long as I can pass the emissions.
I also think the laws were passed by people who don't know anything about vehicle's machanics.

[derf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GaWd:
Either way, Derf, I don't have too much problem with CARB laws. They certainly wouldn't drive me away from the state.<hr></blockquote>

For me, I left the state on what was supposed to be a one year assignment. The more I thought about it, the more I didn't like the idea of moving back. There are many reasons I don't want to move back, CARB bureaucracy being one of them.

I did find that some of the people (mostly the Jeep crowds I found) were "good people". However, there are so many other nut-bars out there that outnumbered the good people. I'd like to come out for a week of wheeling with y'all but it would take a lot of money for me to even consider moving back.

[RWC]

The Clean Air Act, initially passed in 1970, gives the EPA the power to set the National Ambient Air Quality Standards for six identified pollutants: lead (now effectively removed from the environment in the US), SOx (primarily SO2 from coal-fired power plants), PM (particulate matter), NOx, ozone/VOC (volatile organic compounds), and C0. The initial act more or less failed miserably, and after the most recent amendments in 1990, the act is now about the size of the tax code.

So what does all this mean to us? Well, the federal government doesn't actually say how the standards must be met. They leave that up to the states. Obviously the states that have more emissions have a tougher time meeting the standards. So what are the ways that the states can limit emissions? Testing and visual inspections. Believe it or not, the act also authorizes transportation controls; ie. limiting the number of vehicles allowed to drive into a city. Fortunately this hasn't been implemented (and it may not survive a constitutional challenge anyway, but it's there nonetheless).

So California, having massive problems with emissions, has had to adopt particularly tough laws in order to meet the NAAQS (and they still haven't in LA). I agree with the whole idea of JUST passing a sniffer test, and it shouldn't matter what's underneath your hood. But in light of the goals of the Clean Air Act to clean our nation's air, one more way of implementing cleaner air is to require in place emissions controls.

Generally, you CAN swap an engine into your vehicle IF the engine is newer AND passes all the emissions requirements for the NEWER vehicle. That's why you can get away with putting an LT1 into your CJ, because now you're passing newer (tougher) Corvette emissions standards. But, because each state is different, that may not necessarily fly. For instance, Anchorage and Fairbanks are the only two areas in Alaska that have emissions testing (since they are "non-attainment" zones for CO). Anchorage at least has more-or-less implemented the California approach for testing. Unfortunately, there are no CARB certification stations there, so if you want to put an LT1 into an FSJ in Anchorage, you then have to take it to California to get CARB certified. Or at least, that's MY understanding of how Alaska and the Municipality of Anchorage have been dealing with things so far.

Either way, the NAAQS will continue to get tougher as technology improves and as we decide that human health cannot tolerate even de minimus levels of air pollution. Older cars tend to be the gross polluters, and so older cars are targeted. Unfortunately, that leaves the enthusiast by the wayside, but we're still a minority. Take a look at the average parking lot anywhere in the country, and you'll probably be able to count the number of custom/modified vehicles on one hand. Mrs. Soccermom doesn't care whether her Explorer can have an Edlbrock intake and 45 lb/hr injectors, so long as it gets the sticker everytime she gets it inspected.

RWC