Head gasket

[WagonWheel]

I knew I had a blown head gasket, I was just hoping the heads were ok to. So I started tearing into it and an hour later I had it all apart and was very pleased. The heads look great, the cylinder look clean, no scoring or anything, didnt find any cracks in the block...looks like just a set of head gaskets will do the job. And an intake manifold. Someone had put a Eldebrock Torquer on it, wich will be up for sale soon. Heres a few pics...

The valve covers both looked like this inside
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3434/1001996.th.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/1001996.jpg/)
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1581/1002001s.th.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/1002001s.jpg/)

My daughter loves helping me work on the rig
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4196/1002005s.th.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/1002005s.jpg/)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2973/1002007j.th.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/1002007j.jpg/)

Heads are off
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9674/1002009.th.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/i/1002009.jpg/)

My son loves helping to!!! 16 months old is a GREAT age to start em lol
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1015/1002010re.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/1002010re.jpg/)

[Tornado230]

Before going to all of the trouble again, I would suggest you have the head surfaces checked.

[JeepMods]

Before you do anything double check the heads with a true straight edge and some feeler gauges.

Rich

[El_Diablo]

any time the heads are off they should be resurfaced.....

[asphaltrockdweller]

My daughter loves helping me work on the rig
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4196/1002005s.th.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/1002005s.jpg/)

LOL That looks like me when I was a kid.
I loved being in my Dads shop with my brothers, I needed to help work on the hot rods too.

[JeepMods]

any time the heads are off they should be resurfaced.....

I disagree, If you pull the heads and properly check them and they check out good, there is no need to machine them.
I've removed, checked and reused countless heads for various rebuilds... for high compression motors to stock rebuilds. A couple of the engines had the aluminum heads and the others had cast iron heads... I've rebuilt Fords, Chevys an Olds 425 and various AMC V-8's and Never had any issues.
My biggest thing is, why spend/waste money when you can save/use it on other parts or upgrades. ;)

[CHICOWAGGY]

I agree with Jeepmods if they're flat I wouldn't worry about it. Most aluminum heads are a different story though.

[WagonWheel]

I have always resurfaced my heads regardless of weather I thought they needed them or not, I also magna flux and tank em. I know it seems like a waste of money from one stand ponit, but Im not one to skimp on money when it comes to doing a job complete. I prefer to do it the whole 9 yards and that way there is no question about anything....

[WagonWheel]

LOL That looks like me when I was a kid.
I loved being in my Dads shop with my brothers, I needed to help work on the hot rods too.

As a father of a girl, sometimes it's hard to find things to do together. She wants to play dolls with her friends and dress up, but I'm so lucky, because she is also all about hunting and caming and fishing and wheeling and getting her hands dirty helping me work on my trucks. Thats the cool times we get to have together. And its also cool because when she starts driving she can fix her own sh^t!!!!!!! lol

[El_Diablo]

I disagree, If you pull the heads and properly check them and they check out good, there is no need to machine them.
I've removed, checked and reused countless heads for various rebuilds... for high compression motors to stock rebuilds. A couple of the engines had the aluminum heads and the others had cast iron heads... I've rebuilt Fords, Chevys an Olds 425 and various AMC V-8's and Never had any issues.
My biggest thing is, why spend/waste money when you can save/use it on other parts or upgrades. ;)you may disagree but did you used to work at a machine shop? have you built a 1400+hp small block ford? a daily driven nitrous lt4 stroker powered corvette (vert) that has made over 800hp to the rear tires?

not trying to be "that guy" but i learned my methods from those that preceded me, i may be young but i know how to build a motor :thumbsup:


it is recommenced that every time a set of heads is removed, they be resurfaced and most shops will not resurface without first checking for cracks which is a great way to kill a couple of birds with a nice big chunk of iron :D

[tgreese]

IME machine shops will always recommend to surface the heads, regardless of their condition. IMO this in most cases is about CYA and expediency on their part, than about good practices. If the head surface is flat (and you MEASURE the head surface flatness with a straight edge and feeler gauge) there is no need to surface.

Note that the TSM has a spec for flatness - less than 0.001" per inch and less than 0.002" in 6 inches, 0.008" max overall.

[El_Diablo]

i think your issue is that you're not understanding the term surface and instead thinking of the term mill.....

to surface a head you put a certain roughness on it or an RA measurement to allow the gasket to grip the surface better

the RA of a head can have a HUGE effect on how a gasket seals to it where milling will make sure that the head is level and the warpage has been milled out of the head

i currently have a set of MLS gaskets for a small block ford sitting here (over $80 EACH gasket), i know for a fact that without the right RA these things will never seal, but get that RA where the gasket manufacture spec'ed it and your good to over 20psi of pressure over atmospheric

[Casey]

Hmmmm...what do you want for the Edelbrock?

Good help is hard to find. So we had to make our own...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/fixingdaddysjeep.jpg

[tgreese]

i think your issue is that you're not understanding the term surface and instead thinking of the term mill.....

to surface a head you put a certain roughness on it or an RA measurement to allow the gasket to grip the surface better

the RA of a head can have a HUGE effect on how a gasket seals to it where milling will make sure that the head is level and the warpage has been milled out of the head

i currently have a set of MLS gaskets for a small block ford sitting here (over $80 EACH gasket), i know for a fact that without the right RA these things will never seal, but get that RA where the gasket manufacture spec'ed it and your good to over 20psi of pressure over atmospheric

I understand your point, but what is the mfr/app for these multi-layer steel gaskets? And why is a RA profile only required on the head surface and not on the block? This sounds like a concern only for exotic gaskets and CRs well above factory specs. And why would the factory RA be lost on disassembly, if not due to milling? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm interested.

[WagonWheel]

Hmmmm...what do you want for the Edelbrock?

Good help is hard to find. So we had to make our own...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/fixingdaddysjeep.jpg
Great picture!!! I was thinking $100.. When I get my new manifold I will tear all the stuff off the old one and post pictures.

[shackwrrr]

Yes what you say is true for a high dollar race engine. But not true for a "stock" rebuild. Ask any auto tech out there and the ASE you dont "need" resurface a head every time just make sure it strait. There are 2 sides to the engine building spectrum


Source:
Automotive high performance alt fuels AAS


i think your issue is that you're not understanding the term surface and instead thinking of the term mill.....

to surface a head you put a certain roughness on it or an RA measurement to allow the gasket to grip the surface better

the RA of a head can have a HUGE effect on how a gasket seals to it where milling will make sure that the head is level and the warpage has been milled out of the head

i currently have a set of MLS gaskets for a small block ford sitting here (over $80 EACH gasket), i know for a fact that without the right RA these things will never seal, but get that RA where the gasket manufacture spec'ed it and your good to over 20psi of pressure over atmospheric

[[]V[]AXX]

Looking at your pics I can see why the engine overheated and blew the gaskets. The water jackets look almost totally clogged with rust and debris. My opinion on surfacing the heads is do it. In fact, take em down and have them totally redone. Valve stem seals, valve job and resurfacing. If you're rebuilding an engine that has NOT blown a head gasket, and the heads check straight with the feeler gauge and machinists edge, then reuse them. If you have an engine that blew a head gasket, and filled the cooling system up with goop, then it's time to rebuild the heads. You've got em off, spend the cash. Regardless of how many engines you guys have built that reused nice flat heads, I would not go to all the trouble of pulling the top end down to only half arse fix it. When you take the heads into a shop to have them checked, and they're straight, he's still gonna run a pad over them anyway to clean up the gasket surface. Unless you've got a machine to do that, I'd have the machine shop do it. In a pinch, I've done it with a gasket scraper, and sand paper, but if I have a choice, I do it right.

[JeepMods]

you may disagree but did you used to work at a machine shop? have you built a 1400+hp small block ford? a daily driven nitrous lt4 stroker powered corvette (vert) that has made over 800hp to the rear tires?

not trying to be "that guy" but i learned my methods from those that preceded me, i may be young but i know how to build a motor :thumbsup:


it is recommenced that every time a set of heads is removed, they be resurfaced and most shops will not resurface without first checking for cracks which is a great way to kill a couple of birds with a nice big chunk of iron :D

did you used to work at a machine shop?
Yes, I have worked in machine shops before ;) and I'm currently the supervisor of one :p. I do have to admit, I don't do nearly as much work as I used to but, I still do enough to be proficiently dangerous :cool:.
have you built a 1400+hp small block ford?
Nope, I can't say that I have... and why would I want to waste my money on a Ford when I can spend my money on something better (Jeeps).

Here's my point, whether it's a DD (daily driver) or a WW (weekend warrior) or even the casual ride... if things check out good why go through all of those extra and unnecassary steps as well as the added exspenses? Would you bore the cylinders if they didn't need it? Would you rebuild your carb if it didn't need it? Hopefully not.
Now, resurfacing the heads is indeed good practice but, now-a-days it seems that most shops will look to rape customers at any and every opportunity that presents itself. If a person can do their own basic checks and QA then that person will be better off and he or she will have more money in their pocket for the other needed parts.
Now, comparing a 1400+hp motor to a motor that is used as a DD or even a weekend warrior is like comparing a Monster Truck to a stock 1971 Datsun pick-up. :thumbsup: There is no comparison!

[crbour]

May not be the right way for other people, but personally I have always been on a tight budget with my play toys. I have a metal ruler and slowly run it along the surface of the head. If I notice any abnormalities in the surface (dips or rises) I'll bring it to a machine shop, if not I clean them off and put them back on.. Haven't had any problems yet, but then again I have never built anything over 320hp with high cylinder pressures either. FYI- local shop here charged me $40 per head to resurface them. Just my two cents:) :) :)

[El_Diablo]

yes, the high dollar gaskets do require more attention and they do require the surface to be correct on both sides but a factory replacement gasket requires the surface to be prepped aswell

i used to work at a dealership and was a service writer aswell... ASE means nothing to me because of this ;)

the RA of a factory gasket is a rather loose tolerance, this is something that must be understood from the start, now, over time, the heating and cooling cycles will actually degrade the surface

despite what we would like to believe a head gasket will never fully seal, this also degrades the surface as coolant seeps and the compression tries to unseat the gasket from both mating surfaces

now, say you have two pieces of sand paper, one rough, one fine, which one is going to give you the most resistance to movement? now which motor do you think will be more durable? the one that is a fresh sheet of sand paper or the one that has been worn down over time?

its all preventative, is it required on every engine? no... its it recommended, hell yes it is!


I run a side shop out of my personal garage and manage decent business, i dont skimp and make sure to check out every possible issue, if your going to have your heads magnafluxed, which again, you should do every time you pull the heads, especially with iron heads which are more prone to cracking, you're probably only $15-$20 away from having them resurfaced

isnt it worth the piece of mind? guess which job my customers would rather have.....

[shackwrrr]

he already said he was getting them resurfaced. So you keep telling him to do something thats already going to be done.

There are thousands of headgaskets that have been installed without resurfacing and thousands are still being driven. The only thing That I could see that would cause a "comeback" on a HG job was a careless tech that didnt check for flatness. A warped head will never seal but a flat head with a new gasket will be fine.

Most cutomers would rather pay less than have better service. If you try to sell people better parts or more work they instantly think your ripping them off because they dont understand. so they tell all their freinds and then everyone ends up going to the redneck on the corner that buys his parts from the junkyard. Owning a shop is something I would rather never do because of this

[El_Diablo]

i wasn't retelling...... i was answering the questions i was givin

thanks for your expert opinion though :rolleyes:

[WagonWheel]

Well to make this simple, Im not just resurfacing them because its something I heard about. there have been many times over the last few months that the Jeep has over heated. I put as straight of an edge as I could on the heads and held a flashlight on the other side and some areas seemed to have more light shine through than others. Also, when I looked at the head gasket, there was only one small spot that I might consider was a possible gasket problem itself. It was a little rust path across one corner, thats it, other than that the gasket didnt look to bad. Since I dont have a garunteed straight edge to check it with, it's in my best interest to take it in. The rust that you see in the pics is really surface and nothing major, I think the picture made it look alot worse than it really is. I had drained all the coolant out and filled it up with water a couple times to move it around and thats what that is from, nothing the rust inhibitors in the anti freeze wont take care of. I can totally appreciate the fact that alot of you dont take your heads in to be redone and hey, if you have a straight enough edge to check them with, then why would you? But for the symptoms I have and for me, its best that I do take them in and have the resurfacing done. Then I dont have to wonder about it or re-do the job again. Every job requires its own work, ultimatley you will always do what you feel is the best way for you by what you have learned and experienced. I was an auto tech for 14 years and I am now a diesel mechanic for the past 2 years. I have plenty of knowledge of what Im doing. I appreciate all the comments here and advise. It doesnt matter how long you been turning wrenches, you can always learn something and I love advise and opinions. But just because I dont agree with yours, doesnt make me ignorant (a general statment there). Your way works for you, mine for me!

[WagonWheel]

I just read over all the comments again and I cant help but laugh at all the comments about " wasting time and money" lol....$100 and a day or two!!!! is it really that big of a deal? lol

[JeepMods]

It's not about spending an extra $100 or having the vehicle down for a few days longer... It's more about "Does it actually need it".... If not, then why do it?

[El_Diablo]

piece of mind knowing you refinished it to how it came from the factory ;)