Cold Blooded GW

[BPMeenan]

Hi there.

Wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had some experience in this type of situation.

I have 1990 GW that I purchased back in May of this year. I am absolutely in love with this Jeep. I've put a lot of work in to her and have really enjoyed it so far. The one things I've noticed is that she's very very cold blooded. So until she warms up (perhaps five minutes or so minimum) you can't drive at all. (If you try, you'll stall while backing up out of the driveway and at every intersection until she's warmed up.) After the warm up, everything is fine. I'm concerned about this especially with the colder weather showing itself now.

I suppose my question is, is this just the "nature of beast" as someone just recently told me and I'll always need to warm her up before driving?

Or should she pretty much be able to chug along right after startup and something's wrong? My suspicion is that there's a vacuum issue like a leak or one of those little timers isn't firing at the right time. (Question is, which one!)

Any thoughts or input you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Brian

[christopher]

I have an 87 GW. when it's really cold I need to warm it up until the temp guage reaches the 1 on the 100 degree mark before it runs good. this is only about 2 min. if you stall every time you put it in gear you should have the choke and or carb looked over. I mainly warm it up to get all the parts oiled well as to not ruin bearings.

[Bahamut]

i have never had to warm up my jeep just put her in gear and go

as far as wats wrong could be pluged EGR
blown thermastat
pluged crossover passages
stuck heat riser flap thingy


other than that i have no idea


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The Beast
1975 Jeep Wagoneer
Bald Tires
Old 360
Leaking TH400
BWQT W/Reduction unit(bad shift lever)
Delco Alternator(riged mounts)
Slightly Saggin Springs
Good Sound system
Parts Killer

[MonsterMash]

Can I ask you a couple of questions? Yeah, good. First, is your heat riser hose (shroud tube) connected between the air cleaner and the exhaust manifold housing? Are all of your air cleaner vacuum hoses connected? They are kinda' strange but they allow for the butterfly in the air cleaner neck to open at the prescribed temp. There is a sensor in the air cleaner (rear) with two hose ports that is a thermostat for the air cleaner mechanism. At least that my '84 had it maybe your '90 doesn't but I'd bet there is a similar "switch". Assuming your engine is choked when you start it cold you should first off make sure that the electrical connection is tight. The electric assist choke speeds up the opening of the choke valve by applying extra heat to the bimetal choke spring so the choke would open slower if the electric assist was not properly attached. I hope that this makes sense for your motor because as I said I'm not absolutely sure about the newer GWs. But I'll bet I'm somewhere near your problem.

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" I'm not going to make policy based on guilt."
--Gov. George "Dubya" Bush

"The internal combustion engine is the single greatest threat to life on this planet."
--Vice Pres. Al Gore
(I guess he walks to work?)

'84GW360--"Spinner"
'84 Ford truck ignition
Electric fuel pump
9.50x30x15 Dirt-Diggers
No emmissions crap
Otherwise stock
(soon to be 4v)

[78Chief]

This is always the case with my rig in cold weather. In warmer weather, it takes a lot less time though. It could be a lot of things, but I just blame mine on the 401cid and nature of the beast like you said.

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78 Chief
401 (The Beast)
33" BFG a/t
Hey It's Big and Green!

Screw Al Gore!

[Ralph]

Generally, cold-start problems are a matter of carb tuning. The first line of defense is the choke mechanism, so make sure that works properly. Secondly, check the vacuum motors attached to the air cleaner (one of which is actuated by the warm-air hose coming from the exhaust manifold). Also check to see that your heat riser valve (in line between the passenger-side exhaust manifold and the Y-pipe) is working freely, as it may need lubricated or replaced depending on how rusty it is. If you're new to FSJeeps, get a Haynes manual and follow the instructions for checking and adjusting these things.

[jeep360]

BPMeenan,

I had the same problem with my 87 after I bought it and the problem only got worse the colder it got. Come to find out the electric assist line had an open in it and the previous owner had adjusted the choke to compensate meaning it was hardly being choked at all and would stall. If the choke is adjusted to initially start and run without the electrical assist, the engine starts running extremely rich (clouds of black smoke) after 20-30 seconds. Once I got the open fixed and the choke adjusted I never had any more problems. Good Luck!

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1987 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360/TF727/NP229

All Stock Except:
Edelbrock intake
Edelbrock carb. (1400)
MSD 6A Ignition
MSD Blaster Coil
MSD Billet Dist.
MSD Var. Timing Control
Flowmaster Muffler

[Wagthe78]

One other longshot is something that is not thought of much, but is the culprit if it's true.

If your timing system's gone south (no offense to those living below the M&D line), i.e. the chain and teeth have problems and the timing mark wanders to and fro under a timing light, then an engine can run like cr** until it is warm. Then, it still runs less than beautiful when it warms, but we're usually too busy to notice.

If you have a wandering timing mark, I'll guarantee that you will love your rig so much more when you replace the chain and gears, and it WILL improve cold running, because it improves ALL running. You'll feel like you gain about 50 horses!

Just a thought.

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'78 wagon with 360,Holley TBI, 4-speed
"Built to Spin"

[This message has been edited by Wagthe78 (edited November 02, 2000).]

[BPMeenan]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I really appreciate it. Here's what I've found so far as well as some additional info.

I don't suspect the carb at all because there's a new (rebuilt) carb that was installed and adjusted just this week.

After reading your messages, I went and started looking around in the air cleaner system. What I discovered is that there is no hot air tube at all going in to the bottom of the air cleaner. Also, there's no hot air box on the manifold; it's broken off. I called Chrysler parts and was told I couldn't get the box as it's part of the manifold. (500 bucks for a new manifold).

So, more questions...

1. Is there any point in my even looking for a replacement if it's part of the manifold? At first I thought it was something you bolt on via one of the manifold tubes but I don't think so any more. Haynes shows it as part of the manifold itself. :-(

2. Any suggests on fabricating something? I figure I could use sheet metal and make something that bolts on (via the existing manifold bolts) and just sits there and collects some hot air.) Of course, I have no idea how to do something like that but I suppose I'll have to figure it out. BTW, while I'm thinking about it, if someone could tell me diameter of hot air tube I need to get, I'd be forever in your debt.

I'm pretty bummed right now. Any suggestions?

:-(

Thanks again,
Brian

[Veepster]

2 options....

I have a set of exhaust manifolds that have a perfect riser box

second....you can use the type that comes with the headers.... EASY to make!

find a piece of tubing same size as the outlet on the air cleaner.....it needs to be about 3" long....go about 1" up the tube and cut about 80 percent around the tube and then cut towards the end to cut off the 80% piece......let me try and explain better...you want a 2" long piece with a 1" long and 1/2 wide tooth hanging off of it.....then fold that tooth over into the tube...so if you look down the tube you see the tooth blocking the end of the tube...take a hose clamp and and clamp that tooth to the exhaust manifold...so what you have is the tube sticking straight up from the exhaust manifold...you are done! slip the hose over the end of the tube...

I hope that makes sense....sigh

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Peace.............BartG

the Green Flash!
78 Cherokee
360 2v, TH400 QT with low
4" skyjacker Rancho 9000's
33x12.50 BFG KO's 8" American Racing Baja Rims
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust, Dyno Max
Infiniti power leather seats
50%LuxuryCar,50%Tractor

[Wagthe78]

If you do go to a heated air system, make sure that the thing-a-ma-jig air cleaner vacuum valve is working and shuts off when warm. My wagon was sucking most of its air through the riser pipe 'cause the system wasn't shutting off the vacuum to the air cleaner snout.

If anyone out there knows exactly how that mystery vacuum valve works and where a replacement can be had, please post 'cause like I said, mine was sucking hot air at all times. That'll kill the get-up-and-go!

[jimzamx]

Our '90 GW has this same cold stalling problem. I've been putting up with it for about 6 years now. The one thing that is strange is that after the first time the car stalls when you put it into reverse, after you restart and again go into reverse or forward everything seems fine. Its like some sort of thing where after the first shift only there isn't enough vacuum for the advance on the distributor but I'm not sure if the transmission is linked to vacuum. I sure would like to get this fixed. I thaught maybe it was the choke too but it moves as the car warms up. The '90 choke is sealed with rivets not screws and I haven't bothered drilling out the rivets to check it out.

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'90 GW all stock
'86 GW w/lift (laid over)

[trssho]

I would believe your problem lies into your carb. My heat riser is not hooked up, and I have no cold start problem. You should be able to start your jeep and start driving within 5-10 secs. The heat riser would have little effect in 5 seconds, so I would eliminate that as the cause of your problem. Bring your rig to someone else and have them set up the mixture and choke. Also make sure that your hi idle hold off is working properly.

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1989 GW Tan w/106K miles
1989 GW Blk Cherry 69k miles

[RudyC]

My heated air inlet control thingy would also atay open after engine warm up and would cause it to run crappy so i just pluged off the vacuume hose till i fix it.
You need to work on the carb. the carb shops tend to only adjust the hi idle speed and then the idle mixure. The choke adjustments should be done in the morning when you would be normally starting your car when going to work and such. Thats how I adjusted mine. Saturday 7 a.m. not noon or it won't be right. Of course i repalced it recently with a HOLLLeyII rebuilt and it's the same thing all over again.

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AKA RUDY79.
1979 WAGONEER, 360, TH400, Q- TRAC. 3" ADD A LEAFS, 31" MUD T/A'S (PEP BOYS CLONES).
" Go farther, it only breaks on the street"

[andy d]

What I discovered is that there is no hot air tube at all going in to the bottom of the air cleaner. Also, there's no hot air box on the manifold; it's broken off. I called Chrysler parts and was told I couldn't get the box as it's part of the manifold. (500 bucks for a new manifold).


psst,ya wanna buy a bridge? that silly box is 2nd only to the heat shield on the cat for exhaust pieces to fall off. all ya hafta do is stretch out the aluminum hose a bit and wedge it between the exhaust manifold and the block. theres also a choke stove thingy that warms up the choke that rots away...... The one thing that is strange is that after the first time the car stalls when you put it into reverse, after you restart and again go into reverse or forward everything seems fine. Its like some sort of thing where after the first shift only there isn't enough vacuum...... thas what my jeeps do too. the 73 torino(same carb) did it too. my older brother (ex ford mech) told me they all did that. some thing caused by smog controls. could be that the new carb is not quite set right. good luck


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'88 gwag,pure stock

[Ralph]

Andy, that exact problem is where I gave up the idea of achieving a perfect restoration. Those metal stumps they had for exhaust manifolds just weren't worth the price. So I went to the Edelbrock header system, which has the warm air box as well as the AIR tubes welded in place. You might consider taking Veepster up on his offer for the manifolds, only spend a couple extra bucks and get CopperSEAL exhaust gaskets for an easy, leak free installation.

[andy d]

restoration is not in the picture for 88 gwag. i dont like it enough. besides that,i was checking out the floor this after whilst replacing the muffler.5 yrs tops is all im gonna get outta this one 'til its too rusty to pass inspection. id like to find an older one to restore. thats gonna hafta wait awhile tho, too many other irons in the fire.

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'88 gwag,pure stock

[andy d]

restoration is not in the picture for 88 gwag. i dont like it enough. besides that,i was checking out the floor this after whilst replacing the muffler.5 yrs tops is all im gonna get outta this one 'til its too rusty to pass inspection. id like to find an older one to restore. thats gonna hafta wait awhile tho, too many other irons in the fire.

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'88 gwag,pure stock

[oddfire]

How about an engine block heater?
I plumbed a $40 napa block heater into my cooling system, set it up on a timer,
INSTANT HEAT!

[BPMeenan]

Just a closing note to this issue.

I did exactly what all you told me to do. I fabricated a heat riser box and hooked it up to the air cleaner. I didn't see much difference in the warm up time in the engine. Shortly after this, the performance got really really bad. I was experiencing about 40% of normal power and if I stepped on the gas at any point at all, she would stall. I did drill out the rivets on the choke and started to look at those adjustments but in the end, I took her to a very good mechanic whom I trust and had him take a look.

He found that the power to the choke wasn't getting there at all. He fixed it. He adjusted the choke (in the morning time when it's cold). He found that the carb, which if you remember was just put in, had loosened up a little bit and so he got another half turn out of all three bolts. He did some general adjustments to the carb and also reset the timing. Charged me 80 bucks for all his work.

I really need to learn carbs more if I'm going to be successful with this Jeep. Thanks to all of you for your advice and information. She's running very very well now (drivable about 30 seconds after startup in the AM). Not sure how long it will last but I'm really enjoying it for the moment.

Thanks,
Brian
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1990 GW - Chrysler 360 / All stock / yet to be named.

[Jake_S]

Where did this post come from? I think our board has ghosts!
Jake_S

[64Trvlr]

It's just FM............
:cool:

[Jake_S]

OK 64, what is FM? I know what it means for radios, but I have a feeling your not talking about frequency modulation.
Jake_S

[Michael]

I would say it is your choke operation. Mine did the same thing. What I did was lean it out so it was not so rich. I had to do it a few times to get it correct but it works great. We do not get too cold here often but when it is 45 deg in the morning I can start her up and drive off. Usually i let her warm up though.

[killroy]

There's one other thing you may want to consiter. I just replaced the head gaskits relaped the valves and replaced anything gasket or seal related along the way. I had to repair a few leaks if you know what I mean, mine was also cold blooded and it was pointed out to me that the deposits on the back side of the intake valves are a major contributor of cold blooded jeeps. the deposits have to become gas soaked befor they will allow a richer mixture into the cyclender. just food for thought. it worked for me, starts great now. Now I'm looking for more low end power.