Cadillac Torque Monster - what axels?

[Gwamp]

I just got my grubby paws on a '71 caddie 472 and matching T-400 tranny. I want to drop this mess into my project truck. What kind of T-case and axels am I gonna need to handle the torque this beast is going to produce after a header/cam/intake/carb upgrade?

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Gwamp ]</p>

[Lindel]

The QT will handle the torque, just fine. So will the Dana 20.

[sandmanb]

how much do you figure the engine will end up runing you when its all said and done? mods ect. i may want to do something similar someday.

[Gwamp]

Let's see.... *opens dream book* Manifold $249 from Summit, Edelbrock 750 cfm carb manual choke $219 from Summit, Camshaft? I haven't decided on this yet. Headers from Cad500parts $?. motor mounts $80. tranny mounts $?. gasket kit $?. roller rockers $299. high clearence valve covers $49. This is turning into a chuck of change! :D Radiator $? hoses and so forth, I am sure I will end up sinking the better part of 2 big bills into this project over time to get it the way I want to. If I have it running in 1.5-2 years, I will be pleased. My biggest worry is the t-case and axels.

[jeepbob]

From my experiences with the caddy motors, the axles from a stock 4cyl s10 will be strong enough. I have put them in heavy 4x4's and even a full size coupe deville pro streeter and they have left a negative impression. Hope your results are better.

[Gwamp]

Hopefully I won't be disappointed with the results. If nothing else, it will provide me with a valuble learning experience that I need. It will also keep me out of trouble. :D

[Gwamp]

I just changed the title on this so maybe I will get some more feedback on it smile.gif I guess that I will stick with what is in the truck for the moment (D-53? and D-44) and see how it all stands up to the torque. If it blows out, I will get something heavier. If not, yippee! :D

[matt0481]

My best friend has a Toyota mud truck with a 500 Cadillac engine, TH400 tranny with a homemade intermediate shaft connecting it to the stock Toyota transfer case. He is using the old five lug axles from early FSJs(late '60s -early '70s). He has yet to break anything in the last 4-5 years. Think about the HP & torque they produced before any mods are made. There is plenty of potential!

[Oracle]

Gwamp, within the last 2 or 3 months one of the offroad mags had an article on building the big blocks, including the caddie 472. worth a look, sorry I don't remember which one. Bottom line though, these engines can be easily coaxed into putting out in excess of 500ft/lbs of torque, that's cummins territory, Frankly, depending on how you offroad, a D44 isn't going to get it. I'd sure look for 35 spline 60 setup. Especially if you're the type that gets the front end airborne every now and then climbing over ledges. Either that, or use a slightly downsized u'joint setup and carry spares and tools. Lots easier to do a field u-joint swap than to replace a broken axle (or two smile.gif Another thing, get that auxillary gastank mentality going as the big caddie sucks gas like you will not believe. Only slightly less than pouring it out on the ground :(
heheheh

[Gwamp]

I will have to look into the D-60 setup. If you remember what magazine you say that in, let me know. I wonder how heavy duty the D-53 that is supposedly in the rear of my truck is? I need to crawl under there and wire brush the axel and verify what axel it is. That will give me something to do tomorrow besides cause trouble! :D

[PAJEEPER]

I'd try the the axles you already have and see what happens. The D53 looks sorta like a D60 its hard to find parts for though so if you toast it its probably done. I think they had a bolt on hub and 2 piece axle too but it looks pretty strong. As for you t case I'd go with a devorced NP205 the kind with the small shaft connecting it to the trans. IH and Dodges used these alot good thing about it is you dont need any expensive adapter.

[Tad]

My .02 here. I had the 53 in the Willys truck I used to own for over 15 years. Always broke the drivers side axle shaft. Had several engine/tranny/tcase and tire combo's in it over the years. Always broke the same side. I had a 44 in it (put the 53 back in when I sold it) and never had a problem. The BB probably is too much for the 44 also, but I'd choose the 44 over the 53 if that was my only option.

Also, you can tell if it's a 53 just by looking at the case. 2 halfs pressed together like on an older truck/model T.

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: tadsal ]</p>

[PAJEEPER]

tadsal,That axle you had in your Willys was a Timken not a D53. The 53 is like any other Dana axle with a regular style pumpkin. The Timken has a split one.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I cannot see a problem with running a set of D44's. The diff that was behind these engines is no tougher than the D44, and what about all the Chevy 4X4 that ran the 454 in the 1/2 tons no big axles there. I have a 70 Cadillac Eldorado 500 CI I can smoke the front tires and they are driven by a half shaft and CV's. I highly doubt the Torque of any engine out of the box sort of speak would actually snap an axle, or cause other failures. However add the size of wheels and type of wheeling you do and most of all how you decide to MASH YOUR GAS will determine what you will need as far as axles go. To say OH I have a big engine I need big axles is not the formula to use. I will be swapping in a 500 Caddy in to my Cherokee this winter and have no plans to swap the D44's. I have run BBC 402's and 454's in the FSJ before and never had any troubles with the D44's. Get the swap made put all your $$$$ into the swap then feel out your necessary upgrades. I think you will be impressed with the power. I have not yet driven the Caddy in a FSJ but my Eldorado wakes one up in a hurry. If you decide to rebuild the 472 you can buy the MASTER Rebuild kit for a Caddy 500 and this will give you the Crank, rods, pistons, and all the other goodies you need. Install this KIT and VIOLA 500 Caddy. :D ;)

[Gwamp]

Thank you all for the advice. I hope not to have to rebuild the motor, but I won't know for sure the condition until I can get it up on my stand and open her up and take a looksie at her guts. I am a little hesitant about just dropping it in there with out making sure the motor is sound. At the very least, I want to replace all the gaskets, the cam, the ignition, the intake, the carb and anything that needs it as I dig into it. HHHMMM.... my wallet just had a heart attack. If it takes a year, it takes a year! :D

[Oracle]

Crazy, of course one can squeak by with the 44's but here's the considerations for Gwamp. There's two kinds of fourwheelers (imho), those who fully enjoy every trip out knowing that everything on the rig is more than adequate for the job and can therefore relax and smell the roses, or those who drive marginal machines and are thus constantly accompanied by that little sob gremlin in the back of their minds who won't stop reminding them that something can definitely go waaaay wrong at the absolute worst time. Dunno bout you, but from personal experience, I enjoy the trip one heck of a lot better knowing the machine measures up, especially if I'm the one who built it. Nothing ruins a great time on the trail like constant worrying, just waiting for something to break, and what for? D 60's are common, and easy to swap in.

Sure Crazy, I don't know how Gwamp drives, but I'm guessing from reading his posts that he periodically puts his foot in it. The fsj's are NOT light, with decent tires, wheels, full gas etc. we're talking a hell of a lot of mass in motion. In the sand fine, in loose dirt fine, but in the rocks, If you go from no traction, a little wheel spin, then LOTS of traction, you're going to be spitting out D44 parts. I can't even count the number of 304 Cj's I've seen explode d44's in moab. When i think of one behind a built 472 or 500 it makes me shudder. Like I said, peace of mind may cost you some effort and money, but it sure is worth it in my book.

Gwamp, just so you know, I was one of the guys who 'discovered' the Golden Spike, and I think the first or second across the Crack (we had two parties coming from different directions). I have sat on that trail for hours and literally watched hundreds of machines line up, make their try and blow parts all over that countryside.

If you like to play in the sand, 44's probably fine, but like I said before, if you play in the rocks, have a heavy foot and every now and then get one wheel or another loose in a FSJ with a BIG motor, a 44 is Not the hot setup imho. CAVEAT- Sure I'm biased, I'm just one of those guys who likes to build a rig "once".
Oracle

[Gwamp]

I hope to eventually stuff a set of D-60's under there. I know that the torque that will eventually be made by this motor will be fairly high and axels will need to be beefed up. Hopefully I will be able to aquire a set of D-60's to fit under there for a decent price. Maybe a set will just drop into my lap like all the rest of this stuff has here recently :D

[scotty]

im a firm believer of "if it aint broke,dont fix it" however,im gonna hafta agree that the 44s wont hold up if youre getting traction. i have destroyed an axlehousing,blown spider gears,and broke an axlehaft in my rear 44 with my 6 cyl.38" tires are heavy,and a granny 1st and 2.46 low range helps the little 258 make more than enuff power to break stuff.

i used to have a 79 pinto with a built 351W.it had the stock 4 cyl,4 lug rearend,wich i never had a prollem with. why? cause i also had stock 13" tires that would never had enuff traction to risk breaking parts. i could break em loose going 20 mph.nw if i d put on som sticky wide slicks,it woulda been a different story.

like the oracle said,when there is no traction,44s will be fine.but they will definaely not hold up the the shock loads of 500 ft lbs of torque multiplied thru the tranny and xfer case gears. a spinig tire that suddenly finds traction can break parts no matter what engine is spinning em,and putting your foot to the floor in 1st gear low range and sending caddy engine torque will send 44 parts a-flyin,if theyre is ample traction.

nothin wrog with runin what ya got till it breaks,maybe youll be fine,but i suspect you will sooner than later apgrading at least the rear.

some more food for tot anyway...

[PolarCoastie]

Four Wheeler recently had an article on the Rockwell axles used in Army 6x6's. Should be good for 60 inch tires.

[Gwamp]

I'd REALLY like some of the stuff from here. Who's gonna buy me some of this stuff for Christmas? :D

USA 6X6 (http://usa6x6.com/index.phtml)

Some pretty cool stuff there. I could drop some serious change there...