A GM Emergency Help!

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Sorry to bring this non-related topic in here.. but I really need to figure this one out on the quick-side.

I built a motor and had a friend at my old dealership build me up a tranny for a neighbor.

Here's what it went in :

79 El Camino originally with 267 V-8 and TH350 Non-lockup 3-speed auto

Here's what I put in it :

* 350 with 9:1 flat top aluminum pistons
* Re-ground 350 crank
* Resized Rods
* New rings
* Crane .268 cam (at .490 lift? I think that's the number on the sheet)
* Crane Hydraulic lifters and pushrods
* New freeze-plugs, cam bearings, crank bearings (shop did this part)
* L-88 style (vette) Springs, seats, and HD valves with a 3-angle valve job
* Edelbrock Performer Intake
* Edelbrock 1406 600 cfm Electric Choke carb
* Excel Plugs
* New stock cap and rotor
* Excel 8.8 mm plug wires cut to fit for 350
* New GMB Hi-flow Water pump
* 160 degree thermostat
* New belts and hoses
* New Water neck
* New fuel pump
* All new gaskets and seals (duh!)
* New Starter

I reused the A/c compressor (not hooked up yet though), the power steering pump, the water pump pulley, alternator, exhaust manifolds, radiator, distributor, throttle linkage bracket, and as much of the 267's bracketry as possible.

The transmission was rebuilt with :

New clutches
Superior Stage II shift kit (this kit supposedly changes a TH350 non-lockup to a Lockup style)
Draco 2600-2800 Stall torque converter
NO SHIFT SERVO (blocked off for crisp shifts)

used the original kick-down cable

I got it all together and in the car, and timed it, I've got it running pretty smooth and did the 2,000 rpm for 20 minutes, changed the oil and filter. Filled the tranny with I wanna say 6 quarts.. maybe a little more. It was reading full hot at idle in park when I figured it was full and the motor was nice and warm.

I ran into four problems...

* The cam is supposed to be "Rough idle" but it runs as smooth as a top

* The car doesn't seem to want to MOVE very well. You have to gas it a little less than halfway to get it to move even half-assed *and* the shifts were smooth and lazy (yes the vacuum modulator is new and hooked up to manifold vacuum) And it whines a little bit (The torque converter has roller bearings in them, I suspect that to cause that noise, but am unsure)

* It was COOKIN' when he drove it back to his garage.. the overflow was shaking and bubbling like crazy! (I suspect having to gas it so much to move so little)

* The starter turns quite slow and the motor has a hard time starting when hot. I suspect the choke here because we wired it and the butterfly isn't moving on its own.

Here's what he told me when he drove it :

"It runs pretty good when I nearly floor it, but I shouldn't have to do that should I?" (I seriously doubt it is what I told him)

There was one snag during the install that worried me a little bit... when we put the torque converter on, a normal one would slide on, and you turn it clockwise until it "clicks" in and sinks inward three times. Well, this one didn't click in at all. I lined up the key-way on the torque converter to the input shaft and that was it, after that it wouldn't slide in farther or "click" for the life of me. The neighbor took a rubber mallet and tapped the center of the TC a few times till it sank into place.. that worried me a little bit.

What I think is that the torque converter isn't fully engaging the front pump, causing very LOW pressure of fluid in the transmission causing the weak shifts and the VERY slow responsive take-off. This thing moves like a slug, but it'll get up to speed if gassed well enough (again I think more gas = more spin causing mroe pressure to build up).

I'm stumped.. he dumped 2 grand into this set-up and I put it together most of it atleast and it was my first total build on my own. I'd hate to think it was my fault this isn't going right... any ideas??? Help PLEASE! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif I know there's a GM guru out there somewhere.

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http://www.virtue.nu/yazahx/rand/sig.jpg

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[Stuka]

Well, it does sound like a tranny problem as far as the not wanting to movve thing is concerned. The cam thing really depends on other things as to how lopy it will be. But i think that torque converter not wanting to go on right definately has something to do with it. I have never had to pound a torque converter into position. i have always done it by hand.

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<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
1975 Cherokee
360 w/ Edelbrock Performer Intake and Carb
T18a
Spicer 20 T-Case
Dana44 w/3.54 Gears
[/list]

[Gladi8r]

Agree with Stuka, "Persuading" a torque converter is a no-no in my books http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif

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DON

1988 GW mostly stock, &lt;---Wifey's truck (won't let me "fix it up")

1971 J-4000,Rhino Grille(to be installed)
360 CID 2v, 245 HP, 365 ft/lb
T-18A, Dana 20, PTO, DANA 44 (Front/Rear)
71 Gladiator Pics (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/gladi8r1971?d&.flabel=fld2&.src=bc)

78 GW (parts truck)
360 4v Th400
Dana 44 F/R
78 Wagoneer Pics (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/gladi8r1971?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=bc)

[64Trvlr]

I've never had to install a converter with a hammer either. My advice is to drop the transmission and check it out. As for the rough idle, did you index the cam correctly when you put it in? Is the timing set right? Is the carb adjusted correctly? As for overheating, is the thermostat in the right way(not upside down), no hoses binding or kinked, radiator not pluged or blocked, good fan and shroud? As for the slow starter, could be timing, bad starter, bad cables or battery. One final question, did it fire right away, and then did you run it right up to 2000 rpm?
Good luck, let me know how it comes out or if I can help any more.


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64 Traveler, 350/sm 465/
np 205/ d 44 ft and rear
w/4:88's,33.950's,Line-x interior
60 Willy Wag Superhuricane6,T90,D18,
D 27 and 44
66 Wag 327,400,18,D27,D44
4:27's

[ironroad29]

what is this mess about turning a non lockup into a lock up? sorry that won't hapen with a gm trans the lockup feature is mainly in the converter itself the valve body ports fluid to the conver through the input shaft and activates the locking mech in the converter ,the input shaft for a lock up and non lock up at totally differant so with that being said ,now the overheating may be caused buy timing ...did you use a degree wheel to set up the cam ? anything else you need just post
other wise sounds like a good combo just the cam is too big .

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"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going"

[This message has been edited by ironroad29 (edited June 03, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ironroad29 (edited June 03, 2001).]

[ironroad29]

dang trave you got your in before me ..lol

[ironroad29]

also did you cc the cylinder heads and piston area and double check the compression ratio ,sometin=mes the cr is advertised with like a 58 cc head or so

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"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going"

[64Trvlr]

Iron I'm quick every once in a while. LMAO
Another thought did you do a compression check yet? You may have a flat lobe or two on the cam. You did lube the cam lobes and lifters?

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64 Traveler, 350/sm 465/
np 205/ d 44 ft and rear
w/4:88's,33.950's,Line-x interior
60 Willy Wag Superhuricane6,T90,D18,
D 27 and 44
66 Wag 327,400,18,D27,D44
4:27's

[jeepbob]

The 268 with .490 lift is about equal to what we have stock in our 360's while the lift may see high, Chevies only use 1.5 ratio rockers where we use 1.6. The cam will not be a rough idle cam, it will be a smooth cam. However if you are talking a 268 at .050 lift cam then you have way too much cam and it should not run smooth. The advertised numbers are probably 268 and the .050 lift number is probably about 195 to 198.
The tranny problem is a 2800 rpm stall converter, no shift servo, and I believe your shift kit (possibly not properly installed) you cannot convert a non lock up tranny into a lock up tranny. Also did you recheck the tranny fluid level? It is possible that you have broken the pump by not having the converter in all the way. you are trying to use a strip converter on the street.
I would pull the tranny and check the pump, and redo some of the stuff you have done to make this a streetable tranny. A 2800 stall speed is just to much for the street. We are only running a 2500 stall on our 428 Mustang with 550 to 600 hp and 4.11's.

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65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 broken power lok/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/Lincoln ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[Stuka]

Ahh, I didnt read that part about the stall converter. The point of a stall is to make it so that if you have a really big cam (duration of 235+ @.050, 290+ advertised) So that you can gett he motor to smooth out before you go and put power tot he wheels. A stall that big is very hard to use on the street. A 268 advertised cam isnt that big, thats just a tad larger then stock, depending on what it is at .050.

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<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
1975 Cherokee
360 w/ Edelbrock Performer Intake and Carb
T18a
Spicer 20 T-Case
Dana44 w/3.54 Gears
[/list]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Hmm.. a lot of good input.. a few clarifications ..

The transmission was built by a GM transmission heavy line mechanic.. he's got 10 years experience and TH350's are his transmission of choice... what he's good at I guess.

I'll give you all the exact duration numbers of the cam in about one hour when the guy gets home. What I can tell you about the came is that we asked for the "largest cam we could get without having to do major head work" The heads were built with the cam spec sheet in their hand so they could built it to match. They were originally stock 350 heads, but had the previously listed articles put into them.

This torque converter didn't list specifically its rpm .. it said "2600-2800 rpm" The transmission builder *and* the place that sold us the kit, and torque converter told us that this would be the best one for our application (Just a weekend car, to embarass rice-rockets).

64Trvlr -

The cam was put in with the marks lined up to the crank key-way and timing chain. I did not put this cam in, but the guy who did has been building engines for quite some time. I too thought about "dailing in the cam" but I've never done a total build up like this, and haven't done it yet. Not even sure what this accomplishes.

I timed the motor via TDC. I lined the crank up to TD, and pulled #1. I cranked the motor until it shot my finger out of the hole. This puts the piston at Top dead center #1 right before it starts the exhaust stroke. I then stabbed the distributor in, ran my cap and wires, and started the motor. It started practically right up. It ran a little rough and I turned the cap until the idle ran evenly. I did this with the vacuum advance not attached. This is apparently the way the GM Heavy Line guys do it. It worked flawlessly. I then did a little rev test in slow smooth increments and had *zero* backfires or stumble. This leads me to believe I have the timing pretty close to right on. After I had it stable like this, I then turned the idle screw to run the motor to about 2000 rpm and did the 20 minute break initial break-in. There were no stumbles and the motor didn't overheat sitting in park for 20 minutes.

The fan from the original 267 was re-used and has a good clutch. Although it overheated, I told the neighbor he should have just bought a 19 inch flex fan, and now he finally agrees. The shroud was practically new btw.

As for the slow starter.. I suspect the battery cables. They smoked a little at the terminal once because they were a little loose, but they're also corroded on the ends. I'm replacing that tonight for sure.

Yes I know how to put in a thermostat! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif Hoses were replaced and run smoothly without kinks. The radiator was replaced 1 year ago and still looks fairly clean inside.

Ironroad29 -

I had a feeling this guy was a little off when he said that about the lock-up and non-lock up deal. What I can tell you is that the input shaft has the + in the center of it to allow for fluid flow, but I thought they all do. Is it possible that we have a lock-up converter in a non-lockup transmission causing the MASS slippage feeling? I thought I heard someone tell me that's the behaviour you get when you do that.

Jeepbob -

I'll post the cam numbers when I can get them.. hope it'll clarify some more. As for torque converter.. he's running supposedly a 2.43 rear end? Is that possible in a 10 bolt that originally ran a 267 V-8? This was a 79 model. I figure that it would have slow take-off, but not SLUG take-off with a slip feel to it.

Stuka -

This is "Supposed" to be a rough idle cam.. that's what we asked for. The head builder even confirmed it by the numbers or we would have taken it back. We figured the higher stall would be beneficial for just that reason (to have the idle smooth out when gassed). Again.. I'll post the #'s for it as soon as I can.


Thanks to all of you for responding... I've got about 20 minutes before the guy gets home and I'll get the numbers you may need to help me out.

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http://www.virtue.nu/yazahx/rand/sig.jpg

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 &lt;- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[jeepbob]

Yes that is a possible rear end as it was for super economy and usually used in diesels. That rear end and the high stall converter will make it a real slug that you must have the engine reving high to get going.

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65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 broken power lok/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/Lincoln ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[DLyons]

Just a thought on the hard starting and overheating. Where is the timing set? If it is advanced too far it would cause these symptoms. Are the weights in the distributor rusted or do they move freely? I have also never needed a mallet to install a converter. They usually slide right in, you may want to check that also. Good Luck!!

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DaveLyons
84 Grand Wagoneer
74 Grill & Round Headlights
360-727-229-3.31s
2" Suspension Lift
2 1/2" Body Lift(HomeMade)
Krylon Burgundy
Product of "Redneck Engineering"
88 Chevy Beretta GT (Work car, gas mileage, high speed cornering)

[BobBarry]

First off, get your hands on a timing-light and figure out what timing you're really running.

Second, yes, a 2800-rpm stall converter is going to work EXACTLY as you describe; it will be very soggy and unresponsive at anything less than full-throttle.

Third, your induction system, valve-event and exhaust system are mismatched. You seem to want an engine that makes power in the 3000-6000rpm range, but you've got a regular Performer intake, a tiny carb and STOCK exhausts. Your exhaust is good for 500-2500 rpm, your intake is good for 1500-5000rpm, and your cam is good for 3000-6000rpm. And your timing curve is nowhere near optimized. Plus you've got a very high stall converter with a rear gear that probably won't let your power-band kick-in until about 35mph in first gear I bet it's actually slower and less fun around town than the stock 267 2bbl was, because everything is working against everything else.

You have to decide what you want. Do you want the "sound" of a rumpity-rump cam? Then unhook a vacuum line. But if you want power and responsive street performance, I'd recommend the regular Performer cam, a set of headers with 2.25" dual-exhaust, an 1800rpm converter (MAX!!!), and 3.42 rear gears.

If you REALLY want to run a rump-rump cam and ACTUALLY make the car faster, then you'll need the Perfomer RPM intake, a 750cfm double-pumper, 1 5/8" primary-tube headers, and 4.11 rear gears; then you can actually run that 2800rpm stall converter. It will be very fast at 3/4-full throttle, but it will still be a dog at regular part-throttle acceleration (though less than it is now). That would only be fun as a cruise-night car.

I know something about this, because I built a similar mismatched combo, though not as bad. I had an Electra for which I built a 403 with the Edelbrock Performer intake and cam package, and I added a 2200rpm converter, expecting I would upgrade the rear axle from 2.41 to 3.42 gears and the exhuast to a true dual system. Well, I never got the gears in, and before I put the true duals in, it was a real dog around town. WOT power was MUCH better, even more so with true-duals, and even more so when I went from a lean-jetted Qjet to a 3310 Holley.

I had to part the car out before I could get the whole thing sorted out; you just have a whole lot of sorting out to do before you have a good combination.

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Bob Barry<UL TYPE=SQUARE>* '78 Cherokee 4-door
* '88 Grand Wagoneer[/list]http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/