351 Cleveland in a Wagoneer? Bad idea?

[will e]

My '81 Wag has the AMC 360. Currently runs okay.

I have a lot of experience and good parts for Ford's 351 Cleveland engine. I know that it would physically fit without an issue.

I would end up running the small block C6 transmission....

Custom Motor mounts.
Custom exhaust.

So is this possible? (Well of couse it is) but is it feasible?

[Lindel]

It's no less feasible than a SBC, or a Caddy engine. I think the 351C would be a great choice, so long as you concentrate on making torque, not horse-power. Stick with the 2v heads, and go with a mild cam, use a good 4v intake, and a small carb.

Aside from the mounts, it should be an easy swap, and leave you with a lot more performance options. Custom exhaust wouldn't be anymore of a pain, than it would be with an AMC engine.

[will e]

Yeah. I have a great motor in my Mustang. 2v with a 4V manifold and the holley 2V projection. RV cam. etc etc etc. Only has 30K miles on it. Would be good for the WAG. I couldn't get much for it if I sold it and I think it would be cheaper to get it into the Wagon than to rebuild the AMC when the time comes. I am replacing the Motor in the mustang to the 4V heads etc.

What would I do about the Transfer Case? Can I keep the NP209?

[Sundowner]

isn't the 400m basically the same motor?

[PAJEEPER]

Great idea Will E!!! Ford small blocks are very tough reliable engines. The Cleveland and a C6 would be an awesome combo. I think you could use the 229,219 etc as Ford used the 208 in the 80's Ford trucks. I would get the whole C6 and 208 setup though. What case do you have now?

Sundowner the Cleveland looks sorta like the Modifieds but based more on the small block 351W I believe. It is a better engine the Modifieds are slugs!

[Lindel]

400M is basically the same, except that the block is a little taller than the Cleveland block. It's also harder to find parts for. Both the 400M and the 351M are "bas%&$d" children, and not real popular, even when they were being produced.

I don't know if you'll be able to keep the NP208, or not. You'll probably have to get an adapter for it, but on a good note, there should be one available from either Novak, or Advance Adapters.

[PAJEEPER]

If I'm correct he should be able to keep the 208. I had an 84 F150 with the C6 and 208. It was drivers drop also so it should work.

[will e]

The 351C is part of the Ford 335 series engine. This includes the 400M, the 351M and the 351C. It also includes the 302C available in OZ.

The 400M and 350M share some of the same parts as the Cleveland but the block is wider. The Cleveland uses the 'small' bolt pattern for the transmission. (same as the 289/302,351w and the 5.0 and 5.6).

Yes, Cleveland parts are hard to find. This is mostly true if you are looking for performance parts like Port fuel injection, electric water pumps, crank triggers.

After market heads are available they are expensive and not needed. You can get stroker kits too. Expensive.

Aftermarket pistions, valves, rings, etc are no problem. They are a little pricer than your standard motor rebuild.

I will poke around some more. Normally I wouldn't even think about pulling one brand motor and putting in another but the timing might just be right for me.

Who knows, maybe I can find an 80's Ford with an AOD (overdrive) with a locking torque converter and the T.C case. Goodness knows Ford built a lot of these trucks.

[Rogue]

Found On Road Dead, Fix Or Repair Daily !!! sorry me no like ford i woodnt use it but thats just an opinion

[will e]

I have an 81 wag. I think it is the 208 case....

[will e]

For Off Road Duty smile.gif

Ha ha Rogue Star no problem that you don't like Ford's. At least you didn't fall prey to the Ch3vy hype.

[ October 25, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: will e ]

[PAJEEPER]

Originally posted by RogueStar:
Found On Road Dead, Fix Or Repair Daily !!! sorry me no like ford i woodnt use it but thats just an opinionNo man its Fast On Race Day :D Chevies are for weenies tongue.gif

[chrism]

I'm going to be building an EFI 351W this winter to put in my Cherokee in the spring. It is an easy engine to find parts for and you can use the mass air EFI system from a mustang if you are creative. Going to use either a C6 or AOD with the ford version of the NP208. I have a bunch of parts that I collected left over from the 5.0 swap into my CJ that will make it fairly easy to do.

Motor mounts are available from AA or Novak. I will probably make my own this time around. should be a fun project.

[will e]

Chris - Keep us posted. That is darn close to what I was thinking. I will stick with a Cleveland because I have one with about another 100K good miles left on it.

What is AA and Novak? How do I contact them?

[chrism]

AA -
http://www.advanceadapters.com

Novak
http://www.novak-adapt.com/

They both make adapters, mounts, etc for jeeps.

[gbarrett]

I had posted a question regarding a similar swap a few weeks ago. Time and available cash have kept me from doing the swap, but I have found the 351 / AOD combo for less than $500 at a local boneyard and they'll give a warranty with it. I'll probably put in new gaskets and seals while it's out and save pennies for a rebuild later on.

It's comforting to know someone else is on the same page as I am.

Later,

Greg

[Rogue]

actually i have a couple of friends with rose tinted ford glasses on, and one of them is using a cleveland that he's been using for 17 years only rebuilt once been in 8 different vehicles ford mananges to pull its head out of its u know what and make something decent once in a while and cleveland was one of those days

[will e]

Well thanks RougueStar. The Cleveland is a pretty good engine. The canted valved heads are a good design. The bottom is strong, even the two bolt main caps can take some decent RPM. They 'suffer' from an oiling problem to the rear bearing IF you are running high RPM (7000+). They also have thin cyl walls and are normally only good for .030 bore.

They are a little unique in that they don't have any water flow through the intake manifold.

RougeStar - I am 'guessing' you are an AMC motor fan?

[ October 25, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: will e ]

[Gladi8r]

Why not go with a 205 case from a ford?? If I am not mistaken it is a driver drop xfer and should bolt right to the back of a C6...somebody correct me if I am wrong. You could go with an entire ford drivetrain swap and just have to get mounts...no $$$$ adapters needed smile.gif

Also, there are quite a few places that sell motor mounts for ford engines in CJ's, and they should work well with a FSJ.

[andy d]

the 351 cleaveland is the only ford v-8 i liked. and that includes flatheads

[Rogue]

yea I'm an AMC fan - I like anything rare and unusual I'm definetly anti mainstream. while i can appreciate a full out custom I tend to lean towards the keeping it original theme especially if it is indeed a rare and unusual car/truck. from a professional's opinion/viewpoint I believe the AMC engine is a good design overall. 360's have a long rod (compared to chebby for example) rod ratios are an often overlooked performance ingredient - this may sound familiar to some --> ever hear of chebby "pink" rods? all they were was 5.7" rods - longer than stock, better ratio more compression etc etc i believe the AMC 360 to be a very good foundation to build upon and since everything is already there it will save you a lot of time figuring out how to make this fit that and so on....GOOD LUCK

[Rande]

Electrical hook-ups, throttle connection, engine mounts, tranny crossmemeber, driveshafts, radiator outlets, shifter linkages, exhaust system....ya, sounds like a good idea....
I rarley consider these swaps due to my lack of fabrication skills and equipment. If you have those things, then it sounds like a project. Engines don't get much better than the F*rd 351C. Ecxept maybe the Ch*vy smallblock, the AMC, Caddy 500s, Chrysler Hemi, International 392, Subaru 3cyl, AHA oil motor, Frink...don't worry...the drugs will wear off before tomorrow....

[Lindel]

as long as there are no computers to hook into the current harness, it's not that hard, as far as wiring. The donor engine complete with all necessary harness and hardware maked for a fairly easy swap, aside from the mounting fabrication.

[BigBadWag]

Did somebody said F*RD?!? :mad: :mad: :mad: Wouldn't be my choice of an engine, but I can't say I've seen it done, so go for it! But don't blame us Chevy boys when its Found On Road Dead :D Seriously though, if you do decide to do it, good luck with it and be sure to take pics :D

[TimK]

I loved the 2v throttle response of the 351c in an old torino at highway speeds. Nice and smooth.

But for your purposes, I have a few general questions...

Didn't the 351c lose out to the 351W due to it's weaker torque in medium weight vehicles, and the 400m was applied to the truck / 4x4 line for those who wanted a larger displacement?

(Quite a few years back, I was thinking of using the torino motor to replace a 302 in an old willy's wagon, and these were the answers I got.)

Wouldn't adaptors and/or a replacement drivetrain components nearly run the cost to build up a better 360?

If your into pulling a ford drivetrain to use, Why not pull a 390 engine and setup? Not sure if that would even work, but that's my favorite motor.

Just some thoughts...

[will e]

I was thinking using the 351C because i have a good one. Won't get much money for it if I try to sell it.

Looking into it some more (and with some help from you guys) I am pretty sure I am going to pass up on the idea. I started another post on how much a 360 rebuild costs and dollar for dollar it is probably the better bet.

I am going to keep an eye on EBAY and other places for a good deal. Maybe I can pick up a 401? I will search the archives but is this a simple swap?

[Rogue]

401 should be a bolt in deal AFAIK only issue would be with 727 compatible flexplate for the 401 but that is easily remedied - just need flexplate from an AMC car with 401/727 combo anything else i'm missing guys?

[243]

Would the Ford 300ci straight six fit in an FSJ?

I've heard they are taller than the six's used in Mustangs and such.

[gbarrett]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking at doing the swap to a Ford (or Chebbie). I'm not looking forward to fabricating the mounts and other details, but I'm pretty much being forced into it. I have not found a buildable block within 150 miles. Couple that with the fact that the machine shops want $1200 -$1500 to rebuild it, I'm looking at nearly $2000 to get the red wagon back on the road. According to the boneyards here, they don't keep anything more than 10 years old on their lots. Real estate is TOO valuable to keep those cars around and since insurance would rather total a car over 7 years old, there is no need to keep the parts around. I guess that's why the local parts stores have quit stocking oil filters for these things. I found one store getting rid of their stock of the filters I need for the Jeep and I bought all 8 of them. So, I'm stuck doing a major modification to the red wagon. At least when I'm done, I should be able to buy parts at Wal-mart (ha, ha).

[PAJEEPER]

Some of you guys are wimps tongue.gif Its no harder than putting on a lift kit or whatever to swap engines. It should be easy to put a Ford in the 80 and up FSJ's because of the drivers drop NP case. That kinda stuff pretty much bolts in. And motor mounts just get out the welder and some steel plate. Seriously whats arong with Ford? I've had good luck with them always smooth running reliable and well built vehicles. Cant beat the reliability in my opinion :D Will e I would go for it since you have it it will work fine.

[ October 26, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: PAJEEPER ]

[Snag]

I have a 79 j-10 pickup and am looking into doing a ford engine swap. It has a 360 automatic with the qt 4x4. I dont know allot about the truck as far as the transfer case model but the front driveshaft does go on the pass side I really need help with this truck because i have put many hours of work in on it and things just keep breaking. The amc engine in this truck is junk maybe i just got a bad motor. can anyone tellme what engines woukld be suitable from ford and what trans and transfer case would i need to complete the swap. thanks abunch

[chrism]

For your application you might want to go with a chevy engine if you really want to swap engines. Otherwise you will have to buy an adapter for the tcase since all ford tcases drop on the drivers side. You can swap the guts of your current TH400 into a chevy TH400 case and your good to go.

For 80's and up FSJ's you can use a whole ford drivetrain from a pickup since the front axle switched to drivers drop in '80.

[85wag]

The Ford 390 fe engine is my favorite also. Let us remember it is the --fe-- series that powered the famous Shelby Cobra--427fe. the cubic inches range from--332,352,360,390,410,427,428. The 390 in my '66 ford puts out a modest 350 hp and gobs of tourqe. Just my 2 cents. Tony

[bentpushrod]

85 wag, don't forget the FE series also includes the 406. Not to mention the truck version FT's which came in 361 and 391 flavors. And the most potent of all FE's the 427 SOHC, a hemi with a cam in each head and over 600 hp.

When I had my '80 wag, I really wanted to go 429/460. I have a couple clevelands and a extra 460 laying around. Maybe if I ever get another fsj, and it's an 80 or later, there may well be a 460 under the hood.

If I get a pre '80, it'll have caddy power.

[Bob Barry]

Ah; don't forget the 406 FE motor; Car Craft just did a feature on a '62 with that motor running the factory triple-carb setup. I almost bought a 390/triple-carb Ford way back... with a 4-speed. Wish I did!

[85wag]

Thanks Bentpushrod, I knew I probally would forget a fe, but knew about the ft's and did'nt mention them. But I will say this-I love these engines. My 390 is out of a 67 mustang and has all of the edelbrock goodies on it. Fe translated means For Ever..............Tony