Will the T-18/Dana 20 from a 258 Scout fit my Cherokee? 360

[Grantshire]

An older gentleman overheard me talking about my FSJ projects with a couple of guys at church Sunday. Said he had an old Scout down at the barn he would like to get rid of. It is a mid 70's with a AMC 258, 4 speed transmission and Dana 20. I have not checked axles yet so I don't know about their ratio. I have been looking for a AMC T-18/Dana 20 or 300 setup to put in my 79 Cherokee Chief (replacing the TH400/QT setup). Have I found one? Since this Scout has a AMC 258 does that mean this T-18/Dana 20 will be a direct bolt-in like one from an AMC Jeep? The guy says its in his way and I can have it if I will come get it. Is this going to work or just be another vehicle sitting in my yard?

Grantshire
December 1, 2003

[grimgaunt]

yes, believe it or not. The scout 258 bellhousing was the same as the Jeep 258. Ergo - it will fit a 360 as well. Now, whether there will be issues with the input shaft length or not I cannot say.
Barring any issues with that, the rest of it should be a bolt in

[Stuka]

The trans will bolt to a v8... but... it will be a short input shaft version. (unless it came from a v8 originally) If it is the short input shaft version, the shifter will be closer tot he firewall, and you most likely woont be able to get it alll the way into first gear without hitting the dash first.

[Grantshire]

Can the input shaft be swapped out for a different one to make it work with the V8? Isn't this a common problem with any AMC 6 cylinder to V8 T-18 swap? I know I will need all the inside parts for the swap (clutch pedal, diff brake pedal, all the hardware, etc.). I guess I am trying to determine if Scout used a complete AMC set-up for these Scout II's (AMC engine/tranny/TC and all the linkage) or if this is some kind of weird IH/AMC combo. It is hard to pass up a free T-18/Dana 20 but I don't want some hybrid setup that I cannot find parts for either.

[Retro93]

Originally posted by Stuka:
The trans will bolt to a v8... but... it will be a short input shaft version. (unless it came from a v8 originally) If it is the short input shaft version, the shifter will be closer tot he firewall, and you most likely woont be able to get it alll the way into first gear without hitting the dash first.If the shifter winds up under the dash, just use a torch to bend it for clearance. Good to go. smile.gif

[tgreese]

Originally posted by Grantshire:
Can the input shaft be swapped out for a different one to make it work with the V8? Maybe. If it were a Jeep 258/T18, you'd also need a spacer (bellhousing?) to make the overall combination the same length.

Isn't this a common problem with any AMC 6 cylinder to V8 T-18 swap?Yes.

It is hard to pass up a free T-18/Dana 20 but I don't want some hybrid setup that I cannot find parts for either.The question is whether the Scout T18 has the same internals as the Jeep T18. Some of the vendors might know for sure, like Novak or R&P or Scotties. I hear Novak is usually very helpful on the phone.

BTW if it's free, you could always part it out and sell the T18/D20 to some other Jeep owner who wants to convert their AMC CJ or 258 SJ. Make a few bucks to finance an SJ 360/T18/D20 combo to swap in - they're out there.

hth :cool: Tim

[Grantshire]

I have been searching for information on this topic since Sunday. The best I have been able to determine is that the Scout II's with the AMC 258's used a complete AMC engine/tranny/TC combo. That means everything should be the same as if this were a 6 cylinder Jeep setup. I believe the issue I will have to deal with is trying to mate the short shaft & bellhousing of a 6 cylinder to an eight cylinder engine. If i just bolt everything up the transmission will be moved forward about 9" (the difference between the length of a 6 cylinder engine and the shorter V8. Apparently the V8 manual trannys had a longer bellhousing and adapter. My question is has anyone mated the 6 cylinder bellhousing to a V8 and "modified" the shifter to fit? Or do I look for a V8 bellhousing setup and change the shaft in the transmission?

[Stuka]

Yes, the engine/tranny/tcase should be AMC if I recall correctly. And you can just bend the shifter like Retro said.

t-grease: there will already be a short spacer in there. The V8 spacer is 1.5" or so longer. You cant put in a longer spacer without having a longer input shaft to go with it.

The bell should be the same for both the v8 and the 6 cyl. Only the input shaft length and spacer length differed.

[scotty]

i think you guys are makin it too complicated ;)

all but the early scouts with the 4 cyl use the same input shaft,wich is around 13" long,and prolly pretty compareable to the v8 t18

only thing i can think of that may throw a wrench into things is the flyweel. as long as scout used the same starter/flywheel with the amc 258 as jeep did,youll be fine.

jeep 360/258 starters are the same,so youll just need to assemble a 360 flywheel with the scout tranny,prolly a scout disc,and a 360 pressure plate. likely youll need a custom pilot bushing

the scout 20 has a different shifter,so new holes for the tranny and transfer case are probable.

if you decide to undertake this swap,be sure to let us know what little bugs pop up smile.gif

[scotty]

let me know if you decide to sell it. a friend wants to use a scout tranny and an amc motor in one of his projects smile.gif

[Rande]

Check that Scout rear axle for a limited slip. I have found more Scouts that came with the limited slip diff than without. It was the Trac-Loc, not the best but if its free, with new clutches it should work just fine. Scout front axles also had 8 bolts holding the knuckle on as opposed to the 6 on the Jeep axle. Problem with the Scout front axle is the 0 caster angle. Jeep was much better for caster angle.

[Grantshire]

I think there is still a lot of confusion about these particular Scout II's. As I understand it these vehicles do not have Scout/IH transmissions or transfer cases. On the Scout vehicles that used an AMC engine it was an AMC package deal: AMC engine, AMC T-18, AMC Dana 20. Therefore, ALL engine, transmission and transfer case parts are AMC. I called the guy who has it last night and he said every time he ever had to have a part for the engine, transmission or transfer case he had to look under Jeep not AMC. So the way I see it, I am/should be dealing with trying to drop a AMC 6 cylinder T18/Dana 20 setup into a Cherokee with a V8 engine. Aren't the clutch diameters different? Seems like I remember the 6 cylinder having a 10.5" clutch and the V8's had 11". Is there a problem running a 10.5" clutch behind a strong 360? Any other issues?

[scotty]

i do not think you have 100% correct info on the tranny. the t18/d20 used behind the amc 258 was not really a "jeep version"- the bell,inputshaft,and transfer case had some differences compared to the parts jeep used.

according to the folks over at the binder,all but the old 4 cyl scouts use a longer input shaft than the 6 cyl jeep. also, there was a guy selling an amc 258 scout II bell on JU,and the pic of it was defiantely NOT a 6 cyl jeep bell. it looked like the other scout bells ive seen-big and long,but with the amc bolt pattern

further,all scouts used a unique clutch linkage,very much UNLIKE jeep linkage,so be prepared to have to fab linkage if you intend to use this tranny

here is a pic of an amc 258/scout ii bell:
http://thisdysfunctional.org/kids/Scout-Pix/AMC_to_IH.sized.jpg

tho this pic doesnt give the best view of the length,you can see the goofy clutch linkage that scouts used.

trust me,its going to be a much bigger can of worms than simply installing a jeep 6 cyl trnany behind a v8.

[ December 02, 2003, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[kyrel]

Originally posted by Grantshire:
I think there is still a lot of confusion about these particular Scout II's. As I understand it these vehicles do not have Scout/IH transmissions or transfer cases. On the Scout vehicles that used an AMC engine it was an AMC package deal: AMC engine, AMC T-18, AMC Dana 20. Therefore, ALL engine, transmission and transfer case parts are AMC. I called the guy who has it last night and he said every time he ever had to have a part for the engine, transmission or transfer case he had to look under Jeep not AMC. So the way I see it, I am/should be dealing with trying to drop a AMC 6 cylinder T18/Dana 20 setup into a Cherokee with a V8 engine. Aren't the clutch diameters different? Seems like I remember the 6 cylinder having a 10.5" clutch and the V8's had 11". Is there a problem running a 10.5" clutch behind a strong 360? Any other issues?Well I have a 360 and I use a 10 1/2 disk and I do not think you can get a 11in. disk on the flywheel I have. So unless they made a bigger flywheel they are the same. Also I rane the same clutch behind my I6 for a while too.

[Grantshire]

Scotty, thanks for the picture. That's one ugly bellhousing. Just my luck this won't be easy. Since I will need everything for this setup, I may have to pass on this install. I will check the axles this weekend. The Scout is free so I may as well pick it up and trade it off for something I need (like the right t18/Dana 20 setup!).

[country boy]

Lets see some pics if you get the scout.

[The PIG Smith]

Okay, I'm corn-fused a wee bit here.
Would a standard transmission, transfer case, bellhousing from a Scout with a 345 V8,
bolt up to a AMC V8?

[Grantshire]

No. As far as I know, the only Scout/IH setups that will bolt to a AMC engine is the ones from the AMC 258 setup this thread has been about. They apparently don't have a AMC bellhousing so even this is complicated when putting it in a Jeep.

[sloop]

Grantshire, is the scount in running condition? Is it rusted to hell? you might have better luck selling it to get some money to buy better parts you need.

[Grantshire]

I/m already there, sloop. I will pick the Scout up this weekend and have pictures next week. I know it used to run but am not sure of its condition. I will probably just sell it or trade it off.

I just picked up a SM465/NP205 setup for the Cherokee. I currently have 35" tires on 3.54 axles so going with a granny gear manual is cheaper than re-gearing for both axles to 4.27 or 4.56. I will still have the same issue as the Scout tranny (shifter closer to the dash than a T-18 V8 setup). Now to find a AMC bellhousing and ship it to Novack for the adapter.

[Bob N]

Silly question, but would a Jeep bellhousing for a T176 tranny work with the Scout T18? :confused:

[Grantshire]

Not without changing the input shaft. Scouts were longer than either Jeep or Ford. I think the diameters are different, too. Check out Novak's Knowledge Base for more information.

[Grantshire]

Here's the latest on the Scout II. The body is shot so I would say it is strickliy a parts rig. It is a one owner and I have the original IH sticker listing its options. The 258 is not the orignial engine and it did run when it was parked. It has 3.73 axles and the rear is positive traction. Original invoice list the transmission option as "#18 WG 4SP 1.41 3D 4X4". Cost a whopping $107 extra! Others include rear step bumper (decent), front axle locking hubs, fuel tank skid plate, "increased cooling" (what ever that is - may be the under dash AC unit), Spicer #20, #44 Spicer w/Trac-Loc.

[tgreese]

Originally posted by Grantshire:
"increased cooling" (what ever that is - may be the under dash AC unit)Probably a 3-row instead of 2-row radiator. Jeep called this "heavy duty cooling".

[country boy]

Hea Grantshire Are you getin a title with it? Have you got any pics? I know someone who is into scouts and maybe interested if your wantin to sell or part it.

[Grantshire]

country boy, send me an email and I will send you the pictures I took yesterday (I need to learn how to post them here!). Yes, I will have a clear Virginia title. I am not going to keep this or part it out (my wife is raising h#ll now about all the vehicles in yard). If you know of anyone interested in buying it or trading parts for it let me know.

[country boy]

E mail sent

[Grantshire]

Pictures sent. There are a total of nine in five emails. Let me know if you don't get them.

[country boy]

Man those things were HUGE my dial up is smoking. It took over an hour open them and I only got 4.Did you have the price in one of them? Whats with the brake controler on a rig with a 6 cyl ? Thtas an odd one brake box means a heavy trailer but 6 cyl and heavy trailer thet dont mix to good.

[Grantshire]

Yes, it has a clear Virginia title. I am not going to keep it or part it out (don't need another vehicle in the yard). If you know someone that might be interested let me know. I will either sell it or trade it off. The T18, Dana 20, 3.73 gears and TracLoc axle ought to be worth something.

[country boy]

Grantshire , I went by today and talked to Bill he is not itersted. He was trying to fix up an old scout but has now hit that spot we all get to in a project where you start to think why the heck am I doing this. He says hes thinking of selling the one he has. Sorry I couldnt help you out but you might try listing it here bbs.binderbulletion.org they have a for sale section and in the club section there is a VA. club that is pretty active and local to you. Maybe you can sell it there.

[Grantshire]

country boy, sorry about the picture size. We use that digital camera at work and it is set at its highest resolution. I alsways forget to change it when I use it. No problem on the Scout II. I have a few weeks to find it a new home. I hate to pass on a free T18/Dana 20 but I will keep looking.