Diesel swap shops?

[jMedia]

I've got my 89 wag rig and my ultimate dream is to swap in a diesel for the mileage, power, and biodiesel option and also an OD manual.

What I'm wondering is if there is anyone that has taken their rig to some kind of diesel swap shop? I am a pretty handy person and (sort of) know my way around an engine. I would love to do the job myself but I don't know if I could.

So if anyone has done it or knows some info on it, let me know.
Thanks a million.

PS I have made several posts in last couple months for some help on my rig and always got fast helpful responses and never really said thank you. So to everyone out there who has helped me (which is alot) thank you so much for everything, it's a good thing to know there are still decent and helpful people out there.

[billyrb]

if you can weld and can solder wire, you can handle this swap. You might need to upgrade a few tools, but otherwise it's not terribly hard. I do have a shop I'd recommend, but he's in TN.....you'd basically have to transport your rig there (most shipping companies would charge around $700 or so from CA to TN for a running rig), and then have it shipped back.

[Bill Moore]

Im calling Ryan when I do mine, picked up two nice 4btas for 7 bills. one has the Allison 4 speed..............

[babywag]

Send the govern-ator an email....he had his wag done with a biodiesel.

IIRC it was done in Kansas.

Actually, being serious....any good rod & custom shop could handle the swap.

Used to be plenty of off road custom places around here, but the economy seems to have killed most of them.

Do some calling from the good 'ol yellow pages, maybe you'll get lucky.

I have an H1 hummer drivetrain for my wag, just need the time/money to tackle it.

[jMedia]

Im calling Ryan when I do mine, picked up two nice 4btas for 7 bills. one has the Allison 4 speed..............

two?? One to spare?:D wow good deal I'm jealous. I would love to take this job on myself, maybe this summer when I want to do it, some guys up in norcal could lend a hand :D I'll provide the beer and the wagoneer

[El_Diablo]

not trying to hijack but are there any good autos to back a 4bt? and why not use the later 6bt's? they're about the same weight and more power potential...

what are you guys getting your diesels out of? any trucks you could just go randomly find in a junkyard for parts?

[Cohiba54]

not trying to hijack but are there any good autos to back a 4bt? and why not use the later 6bt's? they're about the same weight and more power potential...

what are you guys getting your diesels out of? any trucks you could just go randomly find in a junkyard for parts?

I thought the 4 was just a couple of hundred over the 360 and the 6 was about twice the 360 in weight.

[El_Diablo]

from what ive heard the later versions such as the 12v 5.9 found in the dode ram is about as heavy as an earlier 4bt that most of these swaps are based on

4bt dry weight is around 700lbs, wet is something like 785

cant find solid numbers on a 6bt but a 360 is around 600lbs from what ive found... feel free to correct me on any of these numbers though

[billyrb]

6bt is huge compared to the 4bt, and does weigh more. The length is the main issue. Several folks have used the 6bt, and as I recall more than one had to cut into the grille area / etc. 4bt is just easier.

[Cohiba54]

6bt is huge compared to the 4bt, and does weigh more. The length is the main issue. Several folks have used the 6bt, and as I recall more than one had to cut into the grille area / etc. 4bt is just easier.

I'm going to steal this post for a moment. I've got a 2002 bmw r1150r for sale, book is around 5k. anyone want to do a turnkey 4bt conversion?

ok, back to our normally televised program........

[angus1]

I am thinking of puting a 6bt in a GW. the motor is big and heavy, in the 900 pound range. I have a complete drive train and when I get some more measrements together I will Start surgury.

[jMedia]

I am thinking of puting a 6bt in a GW. the motor is big and heavy, in the 900 pound range. I have a complete drive train and when I get some more measrements together I will Start surgury.

Keep us posted on that :thumbsup:

I'm in the search now for a 4bt or some good reliable fuel efficient diesel i could get my hands on. Not sure really where to look, I know they came in some frito trucks and what not. My neighbor is a mercedes mechanic, maybe he could help me out with a merc diesel ;)

Any one have anyideas where to score a 4bt(a) in california, north or south

[angus1]

I am not affiliated, but go to dove bid dot com. you can buy the whole truck and lots of them.

[El_Diablo]

are there any other easier to find sources? none of the junkyards around here carry anything that larger because they dont move like the smaller cars do

[billyrb]

find a local machine shop that's been in business for a while...they should have a core-supply guy that can get you any engine you want for a decent price. They may add a mark-up, but still should be pretty cheap. Also check local craigslist.

[jMedia]

find a local machine shop that's been in business for a while...they should have a core-supply guy that can get you any engine you want for a decent price. They may add a mark-up, but still should be pretty cheap. Also check local craigslist.

Thanks, I will check on that around here.

Also, there is a site I've been using called crazedlist.org its great if you wanna expand your craigslist search cause it searches multiple cities or even states

[Bill Moore]

the frito trucks are the way to go, buy one and drive it back home, they seem to be going much cheaper. I may be able to get more 4bta s as well. I will check.

[Fiodh. Argus]

this might be one in Berkeley - not too far from you... no photos but might be worth a call...

http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/8547.aspx

1987 GMC, 50K miles on Cummins Diesel Engine. New transmission. In great condition, carefully maintained. $4,900.00. Kass at Vital Vittles Bakery, Berkeley, CA phone:510/644-2022; email: kass@vitalvittles.com

[jeepdreamer]

As far as the "swapping to diesel" goes, I think its best to remember that simple is better. There are hundreds of diesel engines that "could" be swapped in but the reality is how cost effective will it be? How availible are the parts? And 15-20 years from now? For example: I have a friend that has been putting a diesel engine from a Ford car (yup! Ford car!) into his wrangler. Didi it fit? Yup. Does it run? yup! How well does it perform? Like Kaka! Not much power, very sluggish. And this particular motor was made by BMW and put in just 2 years of Ford cars. So what is the likelyhood that he will be able to find replacement parts down the road? Slim. But i give him credit for making it work!
Personally, i would prefer an engine that is simple to install, easy to maintain, gets good mileage and is street-able. Its a shame that the Libertys engine is so costly AND electroniclly controlled..It could have been a decent choice, really. But alas... from my understanding, Chrysler threw VM under the buss (financially) and left them to fend for themselves. Also, Land rovers came with a Great diesel. Even had a multi-stage turbo... but the only way to get one is to import it and it is NOT cheap! Look up TLC Icon and search for thier diesel options. They use the LR diesels.
So whats the answer..? I really don't know. I'm looking still! I keep eyeballing the 6cyl diesed used in Isuzu (worlds largest producer of diesels!) NPR/GMC delivery trucks. They seem akin to the 6bt but maybe a little less known?
This is just my input.... Anyone wants to correct me i'll appreciate it!:)

[jMedia]

Thanks for all the input guys, I know why you're talking about with putting a GOOD and reliable engine in. After researching more and getting more help from everyone on here, it seems my only options are the 6.2 or 6.5 diesels as CA regulation say I have to have an engine fro
the same "light duty" weight class as the wagoneer. AND I have to find one that is the same year or newer. Yay California. So keep an eye out for 89 and up light duty GM 6.5s

[jeepdreamer]

Lol. Sorry, just tired of the emmission nazis cramping my style! Dont get to excited about the 6.2 (sixpooo) or even the 6.5. they are not known for thier neck snapping ability! Maybe hooked to a manual tranny you could up the mileage too but they really are "old tech" diesels, imho. For you, look into the Toyota landcruiser Icon. I talked to the guy about the diesel they use as an option. He will (would?) sell one on the side but its not cheap. But since hes in cally maybe..?

[GWDriver]

I'm not sure how pertinent this is, but years ago,a guy named Tony Capana owned Wilcap interprises in Torrance,CA. Tony's gone now and Wilcap may be as well. He had a really nice series of write ups on diesel swaps and had a lot of praise for the Nissan diesel engine. Said it was almost 'bullet proof' in the bottom end. Tony swapped diesels into just about anything, Ford Pintos, Chevy Impalas, Dodge Darts, etc. His shop vehicle used a little industrial three cylinder diesel swapped into a Mazda. His main idea seemed to be fuel mileage. Tony reported consumption at 35 - 49 mpg. Might be fun just to research this guy some more. Fact is, I'll have to go dig around for my old auto rag with the article in it.

I'd consider a diesel swap myself if I had the place and space to do it.

[jeepdreamer]

Thats interesting to know Larry. I find myself saddened that we, as a country in general, are so unaccepting of the benefits of diesel power. If we were to put more effort (and a little bit more of our considerable $$) into diesel/Biodiesel research, immagine what we could do.?. The fact that most other countries are predominantly diesel powered it makes me wonder. Isuzu, as i mentioned before, is the world leading manufacturer of diesel engines. There are SO many makers out ther from big (Mercades, Navistar,Cummins,etc) and little (VM) companies... what if they all put thier heads together..? All the "greenie-weenies" out there want to tout hybrid or electric as being "earth friendly" and condem anything not related... Only that is a dream. And a false one at that! All forms of mass transportation will cause some kind of damage and leave its own version of non-recyclable waste. To limit the waste and still provide an affordable and dependable form of transportation is the goal. So how does one figgure that a car (electric for example) that costs more to purchase, has limited range and application, is VERY costly to repair (even after technicians are retrained) and is more likely to be thrown away when repair costs = half the initial costs, is more "earth friendly"?? And with these "green" cars comes thier own special problems. The batteries are the first things that come to mind... Ever thought of how to properly dispose of lithium? It also is a finite natural resource and very difficult to dispose of properly.
Biodiesel on the other hand... Uses basically current technology. With little to no effort it can be made to work in all diesel powered machines. Performance is accutually Better, the emmissions less, efficancy improved, and no fossil fuel needed! We can all shake our big middle finger at the OPEC communities that have for generations held us hostage. Biodiesel can be manufactured from almost anything. There are places that run solar collectors (for electricity) that have a byproduct of a certain type of alge (it grows in the solor collector tube). When this algee is cleaned out of the tubes it is then prossesed into Biodiesel. How about free electricity AND fuel!?!?
Ok.... I've rambled on enough...!

[The PIG Smith]

Dont get to excited about the 6.2 (sixpooo) or even the 6.5. they are not known for their neck snapping ability! I disagree.
Read about DieselSJ's Wagoneer.
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=98972
Maybe a ride in rig like this one would change your mind.

Allow me to further defend the 6.2 and 6.5 GM Diesels:

I have a 1993 GMC 1 ton extended length cargo van powered by a 6.2 and a 4L80E.
It has 215K miles on the clock and runs strong.
Sure, I will not win any races with a Camaro or Mustangs, but my van moves out fairly smartly.
I think a vehicle with a 9700# GVW that moves that quick would surprise you.
No, it does not lay down gobs of black smoke when I step on the skinny pedal.

Note that that my naturally aspirated J series 6.2 is rated for 195 horsepower while the Cummins 4BT is rated from 105 to 120 HP in stock forum.
Yes, the Cummins can be modified to make way more HP than the GM Diesel.
However, this is a topic that is highly debated of how much more HP (what is the upper limit) and and for how long (before it spits parts into the street)
250 HP is a good number for a modified 6.2 Turbo Diesel while a few have obtained greater than 300.
IMHO, heat is the big issue of 6.2 and if there were better ways to cool it, I feel much higher power levels could be achieved.
For example: Whipple once produced a roots style supercharger for the 6.2 for use in marine applications that generated insane power levels, like 400+ if I recall.
(gets back to the cooling issue..lake water is far cooler than radiator coolant)

Other factoids
The GM Diesels are quieter and run smoother than a Cummins.
Wherever you can stick a small block Chevy, a 6.2/6.5 will fit.

GM has been the only Big 3 manufacturer to successfully install a Diesel in a 1/2 ton pickup truck, full sized van and SUV in large quantities.
Why? IMHO, it was because the smallish size of the 6.2 (same basic size and general weight of a SBC)
It takes 3/4 ton or greater suspension to haul around a 6BT or a Powerstroke

When compared to a Cummins 4BT, the GM Diesels are very more plentiful; much, much cheaper to purchase and just as easy to modify.

While the GM Diesels do not have the power that a Cummins 6BT or Powerstroke does, they enjoy a similar power to weight ratio,
...for the GM Diesels are much lighter than a Cummins 6BT or Powerstroke.

Damage Control
While it appears I just bashed the Cummins 4BT, I have not.
I am just presenting facts as I understand them to defend off the naysayers of the GM Diesels.
Sincerely, I equally like both engines...I just like them for different reasons.
If had some of Warren Buffett's surplus cash, I would enjoy building a pair similar rigs, one with a hot 6.5T and the other with a Hot Cummins 4BT.
I would keep throwing $$$ at each one to see how far I could push the power...to see which one would out do the other.
Am I crazy or what? (yes, I opened the door, feel free to respond)

[jeepdreamer]

Well... never let it be said that i am afraid to admit when i'm wrong!:D To be sure the GM diesels have thier following. My own personal experiances with them have left me with a poor taste in my mouth. To be fair though, the GM diesels i have delt with have all been of the military variety in Blazers,pickups, and humvees. While they all did function i allways felt great disappointment with thier power and the fact that (the early ones esp.) they were maint. intensive. Seemed like they allways needed glow plugs replaced and they vapor locked alot. Is this a fair comparison? Prob. not. But it is my only Personal experiances with them. Perhaps a knowledgeable person not subjected to the militaries restrictions could make a more user friendly, powerful version? The army does seem to prefer that all parts, weather good or bad, remain interchangable..? I also remember hearing that the early Gen 6.2s were created from a gas engine block design and was prone to many failures. It is purely speculation and heresay on my part. I have only what ive heard and no facts to warrant this. Maybe they are better than i believe? Prob.! I just have my own thoughts. For me though i think i would look elsewhere. The fact that they share the SB GM bellhousing is a BIG plus though!:thumbsup: What do people do for flywheels??

[Fiodh. Argus]

I heard the same thing about the early GM diesels being created from a gas motor, and that they had serious reliability problems. I imagine that had been solved by now I hope.

It is good to hear some good words on that engine, because in many ways it sounds like a much better fit for our FSJs. Also possible to have it legalized in CA.

I learn so much here.

[The PIG Smith]

In the late 70's, GM designed a Diesel engine based on the Oldsmobile 350 V8 gas engine.
GM did not take a Olds 350 V8 off the shelf, slap on some Diesel heads and call it good.
GM designed a new block, based on the design of the gasser block.
It has a Stanadyne DB2 injector pump with such exotic pieces as a roller camshaft (for the 1970's...that was HOT factory stuff)
Oh yes, there were some first generation issues, based around fasteners not being strong enough, poor fuel and the public not knowing how to operate and maintain a Diesel powered vehicle.
Later, GM corrected these issues with the DX model of the Olds 350 Diesel, but by this time, public opinion was this engine was not good.
The Olds 350 Diesel was developed as a result of the gas crisis of the 70's and economy was the priority, not power.
The Olds 350 Diesel is not a powerful motor at about 125 Horsepower.

There is a folllowing for this motor at the http://forums.delphiforums.com/350Diesel/start
Some of members of this forum have obtained near 250 HP on these engines.
(Yes, I am a member there...not active anymore)

So, GM now needed a Diesel for their light trucks that could perform better.
In 1982, along comes the 6.2L Diesel...a whole new design, a fresh start based on nothing.
The 6.2L is not based on a gasoline block.

[jeepdreamer]

Man! I musta rubbed ya the wrong way...lol! I admitted i know little..or less!;) Like i said though, i was just basing my (VERY humble now!) opinion on my being around the govt versions. Granted... the humvee wieghs a Crap-load! And the early versions only had 3sp turbo400s to get em going. But even the pickups and the blazers were,uh... less than enjoyable to drive? Im sure some fault lays with 55mph gov-ners and silly tcases and tall gears but... well? I was never impressd. believe me.... If i could make one idiot (ME) proof reliable while having enough torque (350-450ftlbs) and knock down mid 20mpgs... id look into one. Just to enlighten me a bit... is there any better solution for the glow plugs? They were allways a pain, both to live with and to change!
Also... what do guys do for flywheels and clutches on these motors? I would think an NV5600 would help roll it along..?

[El_Diablo]

and to add to his questions.... what do most do for cooling? what torque output do they have at 230-250~hp? what mileage do they pull down?

this might be my next engine with a 700r4.... maybe, just maybe i can cheap out on this too, lol

[highspdlife0224]

So how much work would actually be needed to put a 6.2 into a j10? I've never even thought about this until reading this post and realizing I have access to one a decent price. Might be something worth considering if it doesnt take a ridiculous amount of work lol. I'm assuming a turbo 400 wouldnt exactly cut it with the 6.2 either would it?

[jeepdreamer]

Its really not much harder than a SBC swap. The usuals apply (motor mounts, exhaust, wiring, fuel..) but there are some little diesel specific issues. The fuel tank would have to be throughly cleaned. The wiring would have to delete the dizzy/coil/etc and something wired in to work the glow plugs. A real healthy battery (or 2!!) to turn the beast over. As far as the T400..? Hmm? Maybe just an adapter ring (different bell patterns) and a crank spacer? Have to ask Novak on that one. The tuff thing is getting a turbo plumbed in. Very doable and i couldnt imagine driving without it! All in all though a fairly simple conversion. Mostly due to its similar size and Gm parts. Do it... I'll watch!!:thumbsup:

[El_Diablo]

turbos are easy.... hardest part for me is getting the motor, trans and transfer case to all sit correctly and for a decent budget

[carolinaboy]

for comparison I have a 1987 chevrolet k30 cc 4x4 with a 6.2 diesel it weighs in at 7900 lbs it has a 4spd and 4.11's. The pump is turned up, timing tweaked and still gets around 16 mpg. I have no doubt that it has more off the line than my 89 gw with 31's and 2.72's. So one could imagine what motor I'll put in my gw along with a 700r4. there really not that bad. they are a good 1/2 ton diesel.
a good place for info
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/index.php

[newtojeeps]

The plus in taking it to a shop and having it done here in California, is that they go through all the hoops as far as getting it CARB certified.

[jMedia]

The plus in taking it to a shop and having it done here in California, is that they go through all the hoops as far as getting it CARB certified.

ya that would be awesome to NOT have to deal with. The only things holding me back are dealing with CA and my lack of welding abilities. I've never welded before and don't know where to start/get practice

[GWDriver]

Diesels are interesting:

1953- Dan Fuller from San Mateo, Ca set world land speed records for diesel autos of 169.32 mph in a diesel streamliner.

1965- A Peugeot 404 averaged 100 mph over a 6200 mile course. AND, a modified version averaged 161 kph over a 10k kilometer course.

1976- A 16,00 pound Kenworth set a heavy truck speed record of 144+ mph

1976- The Mercedes C-111 5 cylinder smashed 19 major speed records, averaging 156 mph for 5,000 & 10,000 miles and for 10,000 kilometers

1978- An 11,000 pound International powered by twin turbocharged V-8 Detroit diesel engine, set a top speed at Bonneville of 159.01 mph

Let's not forget the 1952 run of Fred Agabashian in the Cummins Diesel Special at the indy 500. He won the pole and set new 1 and four lap records.

Yeah, I kinda like diesels.

[highspdlife0224]

A huge lack of self confidence in my welding and fabricating abilities and a fear of doing unrepairable damage stand in my way lol. So would the core support or anything like that need to be moved? What kinda cooling system should be used? Ah so many questions! so interested yet intimidated. lol

ya that would be awesome to NOT have to deal with. The only things holding me back are dealing with CA and my lack of welding abilities. I've never welded before and don't know where to start/get practice

[El_Diablo]

there is nothing that is unrepairable in the realm of vehicles

if you do a 6.2 swap it would basically be like swapping in a SBC which has been done plenty of times and its pretty straight forward

[jMedia]

there is nothing that is unrepairable in the realm of vehicles

if you do a 6.2 swap it would basically be like swapping in a SBC which has been done plenty of times and its pretty straight forward

Is there much difference between swapping in a 6.5 and a 6.2? If both are turboed, is there a difference in MPG?

[Fiodh. Argus]

So about the 6.5 - is it necessary to weld on new or move the engine mount brackets or is there a way to just bolt in a new mount that would accomodate this engine? And is a new transmission and transfer case necessary or can we just get an adapter to our AMC equipment?

and then I guess new exhaust atleast to the Y pipe?

would be cool and I think legal in CA since it's from a newer similar class truck.

[babywag]

So about the 6.5 - is it necessary to weld on new or move the engine mount brackets or is there a way to just bolt in a new mount that would accomodate this engine? And is a new transmission and transfer case necessary or can we just get an adapter to our AMC equipment?

and then I guess new exhaust atleast to the Y pipe?

would be cool and I think legal in CA since it's from a newer similar class truck.

Best option is to remove the existing frame mounts and weld on new motor mounts.
That way you can put the engine exactly where you want it.

There are threads from people on here regarding installing 6.2 & 6.5 engines.
BudoJeeper DieselSJ have pics etc. from their installs.

You could adapt it to the 727, but you would want to rebuild it to diesel specs. & use HD internals.
Would be much better off using an GM overdrive tranny IMHO.

Deals are out there...just have to be patient.

Cheap is always the goal, but you have to be realistic as well.
If you pay someone else to do the swap it's going to cost you BIG time.

I picked up my diesel last year for $982
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=93183

Until I have enough money and most of the parts I'll need I'm not going to even start on the project.:(

[highspdlife0224]

having never swapped anything bigger than a lawn mower engine lol how difficult is a sbc swap? I'd really like to swap in a 6.2 that I'm considering buying. but how tough is it? Like how much fabrication? I'm gonna look into the threads mentioned and see what I can determine. Thanks guys for all the info! This seems like something that would be great to do for a couple of weekends worth of a project.

there is nothing that is unrepairable in the realm of vehicles

if you do a 6.2 swap it would basically be like swapping in a SBC which has been done plenty of times and its pretty straight forward

[El_Diablo]

basically, you buy a couple kits from bj's... get a diesel spec'ed 700r4 and the 6.2, bolt them together... pull everything out of your jeep, grab a transfer case adapter from bj's and bolt the transfer case and transmission together, cut out your old motor mounts and then hoist the new engine, transmission and transfer into the bay and then install the trans on to the cross member... once that is done you should have a decent idea on where to place the new motor mounts you also picked up from bj's for a SBC

of theres always the other way which i would prefer which is to do all the same as above except you would use polyurethane diesel mounts and built extensions from them down to the frame and then build a cross member to join the mounts which would make it a pretty strong mounting solution, just make sure you make the cross member low enough to allow removal of the oil pan just in case

and thats it for the mechanical portion.... all you would have to do for wiring is delete the ignition stuff and wire in the diesel "ignition" (glow plugs and such) parts

than just make yourself a fuel system for it which can be as easy as cleaning the factory tank and drilling the restricter out so the diesel nozzle will fit so that you can fill up

you may also have to modify the fuel pickup to increase the size of the pickup lines aswell as the fuel delivery lines

really its pretty straight forward, then all you need to do is figure out turbo plumbing if you choose to do so which again is fairly easy