Going Diesel Need Opinions

[Wagoneerlover]

Greetings everyone I have decided to go diesel in my rig. (not the existing rig but I will purchase a new rig and have been looking.) Anyway, I have a 4l80E transmission sitting in storage ready to back the diesel. I am not really well versed on diesels and wanted to know out of the diesels out there what ones are known to be most reliable/best that everyone thinks would be great to swap in that has all the things one would want in a diesel, (Reliability, parts availability, power, torque, fuel mileage, etc etc.) Please everyone chime in if you have any info/data. Please keep the following in mind though. (Let me know what the best diesel, the diesel of all diesels is!!)

1. It has to be something that I can get my hands on and connect to a 4l80e trans. (I already found a company that makes adapters to connect the dodge diesel to a 4l80e and I think there is one out there for ford diesels) if you pick other please list the engine, (Note if I cannot find an adapter or Trick err.... I mean get an engineer either on the board or nearby to fabricate and adapter for me then other is a no go)

2. Something realistic. I know everyone wants to take an engine from a mack truck or peterbilt or an engine that was designed in a lab like frankenstein and only five of them exist in the world, or some other thing and those are great dreams but I want something that can realistically fit in the engine bay (and fit well) not an engine where I have to do so much trickery and such to get it in that I only have .00000125 of an inch of space on each side of it and I have to lube the hood every time I open it to get it to close around the engine. I also want one that is available that I can get my hands on pretty easily (Easy for a diesel that is)

3. Needs to be able to operate independently of the trans. (Some engines and computers wont function if the full system engine and trans are not together. I dont know about diesels but if the engine cannot do that then leave it out.

[jMedia]

I'm not gonna vote because I don't have personal experience but I have heard nothing but positive stuff about the cummins 4bt and it seems widely recommended and widely used

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/search.php?searchid=225599

I'm gonna follow you on this because, at first I was looking to do an OD swap but I'd rather just completely change out the 360 for a diesel.
Keep us updated! :thumbsup:

[Wagoneerlover]

Yeah there are some guys out here that I know with diesel pickups and all of them swear by the dodges with the Dodge duramax diesel (cummins). I definitely wanted to get the opinion of board members though before moving. (I wonder if the 4bt would be a good mate with the 4l80e???)

[grandwag89]

I'd go with a 6bt. Nothing like replacing a 5.9 with a 5.9;)

[jMedia]

I'd go with a 6bt. Nothing like replacing a 5.9 with a 5.9;)

Ya the 6bt is reportedly great too, but when I do my swap I'd prob go 4bt for the mpg, but if its not the DD then a 6bt would be niiiiiice

[ob1jeeper]

Yeah there are some guys out here that I know with diesel pickups and all of them swear by the dodges with the Dodge duramax diesel (cummins). I definitely wanted to get the opinion of board members though before moving. (I wonder if the 4bt would be a good mate with the 4l80e???)FWIW: The Duramax, is the label that Government Motors uses for the Aluminum V8 Diesel in thier PU's, which is sourced from Isuzu...;)

The Diesel used in Dodge PU's is sourced from Cummins, which happens to be the 6 cyl version of the bt family of Cummins diesel motors. The 4bt can be found in a number of delivery trucks, mated to a TH400...

HTH...;)

[addicted]

Yeah there are some guys out here that I know with diesel pickups and all of them swear by the Dodges with the Cummins. I definitely wanted to get the opinion of board members though before moving. (I wonder if the 4bt would be a good mate with the 4l80e???)

Fixed it for ya, as we Cummins fans don't like the GM Duramax confused with a real engine. http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/images/smilies/trout.gif

Cummins is the way to go if you want the best. The 5.9 wasn't designed by a car manufacturer to fit inside a pickup. It was built to run large farm tractors and generators and run them all day everyday for years. They are medium-heavy duty engines, the rest are light to medium duty. That is also the reason why you can go to a Ford dealer and buy a new F450 and "upgrade" to a Cummins.:D

[babywag]

Go with a Cummins 6bt, or GM 6.5.

I searched for over a year for a 4bt, they are uber-expensive in SoCal, and pretty hard to find.
Was looking @ a 6bt set-up, when a smokin' deal fell in my lap.

Picked up a complete 6.5/4L80E/NV242 for a song.

[COLOFIREMAN]

Of course I vote for the 4BT, mostly because I have one that I plan to install it in my J4800. As far as the tranny....the boys on the www.4btswaps.com boys will be happy to give you some information. But FYI, read the FAQ pages first before asking questions.



Here's the LINKY (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=101438) of my build. I was going to use a 46RH, Dodge O/D auto Tranny, but I changed to a NV4500 for more reliability when I'm breaking trail with the plow.

[thechier86]

your mpg won't suck too bad with a 6bt... we have one in a corvette at work that we run on straight veggie oil! check out greasecar.com
you can pretty much make everything you need, except the computer controller they have, which you don't really need.
i vote 6bt!! i'm not a huge fan of the chevys or fords, because i've driven vehicles with all three, and i like the torque and whatnot of the straight six. there is a lot you can do with the older style 12 valve motors....

[iroc86]

I guess I'll be the first one to vote for "Other/Foreign." :p

I'm not much for hardware made outside of the United States, but I've been smitten by the Isuzu 4BD-series engines. It's powerful, quiet, and doesn't shake your brain apart like a Cummins. They can be a little tricky to bolt up to a transmission, but if you find the correct adapter, it's pretty easy. One company makes an Isuzu-to-Chevy adapter, and there are a few industrial Isuzu-to-SAE adapters floating around.

The 4BD1T engines did not have a computer. Late-model 4BD2T engines used a very simple controller to operate the glow plugs and the transmission, but you can ditch that entirely. They always had mechanical injection pumps.

Check out the link in my signature -- I'm swapping a 4BD2T into my '95 YJ and doing a lot of suspension work in the process. It's far from complete, but I'm getting there. The engine is bolted to an SM465/NP205 combo using an industrial Isuzu-to-Chevy cast adapter. I also machined my own adapter, but came across the casting and couldn't pass it up.

These engines were used in Izuzu NPR and certain GM box trucks. I bought my '94 GMC W4 tilt-cab truck for $2000 on Craigslist, drove it five hours home, and pulled the motor for my swap. They're relatively inexpensive if you can buy the whole truck.

Take a look at the Isuzu 4BD1T/2T (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16) section over at 4btswaps.com. There's a lot of interesting stuff going on there, including a few people running compound turbos and really pushing these little four-cylinders to the limit. They're every bit as strong and reliable as a Cummins, in my opinion.

JeepinPete had a 4BD1T in his Cherokee, but I believe he abandoned the project. Maybe he'll chime in.

[mattmopar440]

4bt or 6bt Cummins Turbo inline motor powerfull most reliable engines out there :thumbsup: Powerchoke would be a nightmare to swap in there most 4BT come with a chevy bolt pattern for your trans

[Eugene 1]

Cummins all the way!. no Powerjoke or Duracrap
oh i do like the 6.5 H1

Government Motors LMAO:D

[joe]

A dsl thread is almost as bad as an oil thread. Lotsa opinions. Lotsa variables likeinitial cost, ease of install, mods needed, scarcity.
I'm a big fan of either Cumins motors (I prefer inline dsl's) and the 6.2 GM. The later is prolly the cheaper route but Isuzu does build good dsl motors too and they designed the original GM Duramax v-motor. I also like most of the MB dsl's but I think the only ones in the US that have enough power for a FSJ would be one from a Sprinter van but think $$$$$$$$.
What's your priority? Cost, easy install? Anyway way you go is expensive and none of them are drop-ins.
I would't base my motor choice on a trans I have laying around and want to use. Buy a complete donor truck.

[krek]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a good diesel for a 2wd application where mpg and QUIET are the priorities?

[addicted]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a good diesel for a 2wd application where mpg and QUIET are the priorities?

Probably a Mercedes or Isuzu

[thechier86]

Probably a Mercedes or Isuzu
x2.

[bigun]

I guess I'll be the first one to vote for "Other/Foreign." :p

I'm not much for hardware made outside of the United States, but I've been smitten by the Isuzu 4BD-series engines. It's powerful, quiet, and doesn't shake your brain apart like a Cummins. They can be a little tricky to bolt up to a transmission, but if you find the correct adapter, it's pretty easy. One company makes an Isuzu-to-Chevy adapter, and there are a few industrial Isuzu-to-SAE adapters floating around.

The 4BD1T engines did not have a computer. Late-model 4BD2T engines used a very simple controller to operate the glow plugs and the transmission, but you can ditch that entirely. They always had mechanical injection pumps.

Check out the link in my signature -- I'm swapping a 4BD2T into my '95 YJ and doing a lot of suspension work in the process. It's far from complete, but I'm getting there. The engine is bolted to an SM465/NP205 combo using an industrial Isuzu-to-Chevy cast adapter. I also machined my own adapter, but came across the casting and couldn't pass it up.

These engines were used in Izuzu NPR and certain GM box trucks. I bought my '94 GMC W4 tilt-cab truck for $2000 on Craigslist, drove it five hours home, and pulled the motor for my swap. They're relatively inexpensive if you can buy the whole truck.

Take a look at the Isuzu 4BD1T/2T (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16) section over at 4btswaps.com. There's a lot of interesting stuff going on there, including a few people running compound turbos and really pushing these little four-cylinders to the limit. They're every bit as strong and reliable as a Cummins, in my opinion.

JeepinPete had a 4BD1T in his Cherokee, but I believe he abandoned the project. Maybe he'll chime in.
am still waiting on you to finish your build

[iroc86]

am still waiting on you to finish your build

Yeah, I guess I've been slacking a bit. :o Gotta prep a classic car for a big show next month, but after that it should be smooth sailing.

[KyooMac]

Isn't the 4L80E a GM transmission that requires a tcm? And the 4L80E mates to the GM 6.5 liter perfectly, no adapter. So wouldn't the 6.5 non turbo be the best option for less headaches?

[COLOFIREMAN]

Isn't the 4L80E a GM transmission that requires a tcm? And the 4L80E mates to the GM 6.5 liter perfectly, no adapter. So wouldn't the 6.5 non turbo be the best option for less headaches?


Yes but with the lack of power, predestination to melt piston heads, injection pump problems, the cost to just rebuild, poor MPG for the end result, and this is just to list a few.

For the initial cost of finding a good running GM, one could find a 6BT non after-coooled version and gain tons. As far as using the tranny, all you have to do is get a motor plate off of the back of a P30 chassis that had a 4BT in it. This will have a TH475, HD version of the TH400, and presto you can bolt it up with nothing custom. :thumbsup:


I still vote for the 4BT for these main but not only reasons......weight (4BT)875lbs verses (6BT)1250lbs, MPG, and overall size, which aids in the ease of installing one. <<---- Of course this from one that still has not completed theirs after 2 years......:o :rolleyes: ;) :D

[babywag]

6bt is cheapest, can pick up a good donor for ~2k with high mileage.

4bt adapters are frickin' expensive!! Maybe they're cheap/easy to come by in your area, but they want $600+ for an adapter flexplate set-up around here.
Cheapest I've seen a running 4bt donor in this part of the woods is $3k
I searched forever, and never found anything I considered buying.

Found my 6.5/4L80E/NV242 from an H1 Hummer with 88k on the clock.
My cost was just under $1k, and it came with all accessories, wiring & TCM.
PO paid $30k for a Duramax upgrade, wish I had that kind of $$$

I would personally love to install a 4BT, they just get too much money for them around here IMHO.

[KyooMac]

Doesn't the 6BT weigh a lot more than the 6.5?

[mattmopar440]

-AMC V8 540
-Chevy 6.5L Diesel V8 644
-Cummins "12-Valve" 745
I beleive these are Block weight only

[Eugene 1]

1100-1300 lbs dressed!

[COLOFIREMAN]

6bt is cheapest, can pick up a good donor for ~2k with high mileage.

4bt adapters are frickin' expensive!! Maybe they're cheap/easy to come by in your area, but they want $600+ for an adapter flexplate set-up around here.
Cheapest I've seen a running 4bt donor in this part of the woods is $3k
I searched forever, and never found anything I considered buying.

Found my 6.5/4L80E/NV242 from an H1 Hummer with 88k on the clock.
My cost was just under $1k, and it came with all accessories, wiring & TCM.
PO paid $30k for a Duramax upgrade, wish I had that kind of $$$

I would personally love to install a 4BT, they just get too much money for them around here IMHO.

I agree, a 6.5 non turbo can be had for around you found one for but with all the problems that came from the 6.2 that I had to work on in the Army, makes it just like eating lemons to me..:eek: :D

For the money and the peace of mind, I sell the 4L80E, go with a 6BT non after-cooled, and a Dodge tranny.:thumbsup:

[jMedia]

I don't know about anyone else but polls like this make me even more indecisive then when i first started :rolleyes:

[PlasticBoob]

I didn't read every post, but I think some people here didn't see the OP's requirements. Normally I'd suggest a Cummins 4 or 6BT, but based on what he stated, I voted GM diesel, specifically the 6.5L - spend some time on the Hummer forums and you'll see it's not nearly as bad as the 6.2.

[jMedia]

I didn't read every post, but I think some people here didn't see the OP's requirements. Normally I'd suggest a Cummins 4 or 6BT, but based on what he stated, I voted GM diesel, specifically the 6.5L - spend some time on the Hummer forums and you'll see it's not nearly as bad as the 6.2.

Seeing as how wagoneerlover isn't around right now, may I ask why you'd pick the 6.5L over a 4bt based on his requirements?

[JeepinPete]

I was swapping an Isuzu 4BD in my Cherokee. Unfortunately I ran out of time, money, and desire, in no particular order.

To me an Isuzu 4BD and a Cummins 4BT are interchangable as far as power, economy, and durability are concerned. The Isuzu 4BD series were installed in the NPR box trucks, GVW up to 15k lbs or so. So they have plenty of power to move around a FSJ. My choice between the two would come done to which I found for a good price.

If you are going to do this swap in a '79 or earlier FSJ, the Isuzu would be a cleaner swap. The exhaust and starter are opposite of the front driveshaft. You will have use hydraboost. '80 and later, the Cummins would be the cleaner swap for the same reasons.

Wagoneerlover, I've got the complete drivetrain waiting to go in someone's FSJ ;)

[PlasticBoob]

Seeing as how wagoneerlover isn't around right now, may I ask why you'd pick the 6.5L over a 4bt based on his requirements?

Well honestly I know squat about diesel conversions, but I do plan on swapping in a 4BT in the future. IIRC When I was doing my diesel swap research, the 6.2/6.5 was the best way to go with the least amount of trouble. I could be wrong though, that was over a year ago. Seems that the 6.5 meets Wagoneerlover's requirements for being:

1) Something you can get your hands on. Out here in So. Cal., I see lots of 6.2/6.5s for sale but rarely a proper 4BT or even the Step Van they came in for sale. The GM diesels were cheaper too. Again, my info is a little dated so this may have changed recently.

2) Something realistic. Supposedly even the 4BT weighs so much that you may need different springs, etc. Supposedly the 6.2/6.5 are much lighter and if it does bolt right up to the 4L80E then that cuts out some expense.

3) Actually I have no idea if the 6.5 operates independently of the trans. :p

Don't crucify me if my info is wrong, my memory is a little fuzzy on this since I won't be doing my diesel swap for at least a few more years and one more 401.

Personally I will be going with a 4BT no matter what the costs/headache, but I did give serious thought to the GM diesels too.

[KyooMac]

I didn't read every post, but I think some people here didn't see the OP's requirements. Normally I'd suggest a Cummins 4 or 6BT, but based on what he stated, I voted GM diesel, specifically the 6.5L - spend some time on the Hummer forums and you'll see it's not nearly as bad as the 6.2.

I worked on HMMWV's in the Corps and the 6.2 Liter diesel was a POS, but GM worked the kinks out of the 6.5L and he already has a 4L80E. I love diesel and the 4BT and 6BT are great motors. But I think the weight issue is being overlooked. If we're going to go with what we would really want then I vote a Continental V-12 750 hp air-cooled, twin-turbocharged diesel engine, that came in the M60 tanks I also worked on in the Corps. A couple of AAL's and he'll be OK.

[gotmike]

i believe he can get a standalone computer setup for the 4l80E... and then he can mate it to anything he wants... i know that cummins will fit up there... i've got one in mine... and it's an awesome setup... i also know that the 6.5 rev's much higher and can be built to run like a freight train... but i'd still go with the cummins if i could... the only downfall is the height of the motor... he can set it very high in the engine bay to keep his ride height down but he will have to put a dana 60 up front with much heavier springs and at least a dana 60 in the rear as well... i'd vote for a dana 70 hd or a 14 bolt... but then again i'd also trade that auto for an NV4500 or a NV 5600 6-speed... both can be found mated to a cummins from the factory so they're easy to setup...

[Wagoneerlover]

The 4bt sounds like it might be a winner. Jeepingpete, I will send you a pm perhaps there is an adapter around for the isuzu engine. (Although the rig that I am eying is probably going to be a 90, (The rig that it would go in) If I can wrestle it away from the shop that it has been sitting at for like two years (All of a sudden right when I want it though there are customers who have been eyeing it and he wants top dollar for it) it is in great shape though but I hate when shops/people do that!


Gotmike, yes I could purchase a stand alone controller for the 4l80e but I refuse to do so when I know how to make a controller for the 4l80e myself.

[JeepinPete]

My Isuzu has an adapter already for a SBC patterned transmission. Your 4L80E will bolt right up. I had it installed with a Chevy NV3500, drove it around the yard a bit, but never finished it up enough to take it on the road.

[iroc86]

This thread (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4525) over on 4btswaps.com highlights a lot of transmission options for the Isuzu 4BD engines. It's geared towards manual transmissions, but there's a lot of good info there.

[Carleysjeep]

I love the Cummins 6BT, I have one that I would like to put in my wag, but they weigh 1200 lbs and that can't be ignored.

[Wagoneerlover]

I love the Cummins 6BT, I have one that I would like to put in my wag, but they weigh 1200 lbs and that can't be ignored.

I think an engine like that would be more suited to a chevy suburban or a Ford Bronco or something like that. Big vehicles you know? The wag simply is too small a rig for a 1200 pound engine. (I know it can be done but really like stated I feel that the 6bt is too big and heavy and more suited to larger SUV's and pickups.

[Salt O'daniels]

I was pretty scared of the 6BT in my wagoneer with the weight and all, but it actually handles really well and is well balanced. It has excellent road manors. the previous owner did however install 2" drop shackles in the front since that is how much the engine dropped the ride height.

[DAHoyle]

4bt or 6bt Cummins Turbo inline motor powerfull most reliable engines out there :thumbsup: Powerchoke would be a nightmare to swap in there most 4BT come with a chevy bolt pattern for your trans

Minor correction here.
Most Cummins 4BT do not come with a GM bolt pattern.
The Cummins uses a Bellhousing adapter which goes between the engine and bellhousing, and there are many many versions available.

GM
Ford small block pattern
at least 2 Dodge Patterns
SAE2
and SAE3.

Of all of those, I would say that the GM and Ford pattern are the least common.

There are plenty of GM adapters out there, for a Automatic, but the flywheel for a manual is rare as hens teeth.
Given the number of Cummins powered Dodges out there, I would have to say that the most common bellhousing adapters are 'you guessed it, Dodge. There are many many times more Dodges sporting the Cummins than there are Bread vans.

Which is most common is pretty much irrelevant, since on any given day, a search on one of the forums or craigslist, or Ebay, will generally find you which one you desire, with the exception of the SAE versions. You can find them at truck salvage yards and such, but you have to know what you are looking for. All the newer bread vans and delivery trucks are running the SAE adapters, generally the SAE3.

[BGW]

Pardon my asking, but how come practically no one here seems to like Ford diesels? Do they not fit well, or do the people here just really hate Ford?

Why not Detroit? That would be my dream combo. I think weight is a huge deal there, though. I don't think they make many smaller diesels. The wonderful diesel scream those fuel pinchers let out make the other issues with that series seem less important. Those are my favorite diesels, sound-wise.

[COLOFIREMAN]

Pardon my asking, but how come practically no one here seems to like Ford diesels?

From what I've seen most fords, except the 6.9, have a lot of running problems. And all fo them are very under powered for the size, plus all of them eat glow plugs and relays for lunch. The 7.3 IDI tow truck we have here is always down for one reason of another.... This is the main reason why people with Powerstokes are "destokeing" them.... www.destroked.com (http://www.destroked.com)


Why not Detroit? That would be my dream combo. I think weight is a huge deal there, though. I don't think they make many smaller diesels. The wonderful diesel scream those fuel pinchers let out make the other issues with that series seem less important. Those are my favorite diesels, sound-wise.

Yes but to make a Detriot work one must rap it up where as a Cummins, Isuzu, or John Deere, all gte there torque at the low end. I agree a good running Detriot sound great climbing a hill..
VIDEO 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o)

:thumbsup:

[BGW]

Thanks for clearing things up for me! That is a sweet truck. I have personally had good experiences with the Ford diesels, that's why I was wondering.


Another Detroit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qgDauSjhk

[1-tonmudder]

From what I've seen most fords, except the 6.9, have a lot of running problems. And all fo them are very under powered for the size, plus all of them eat glow plugs and relays for lunch. The 7.3 IDI tow truck we have here is always down for one reason of another.... This is the main reason why people with Powerstokes are "destokeing" them.... www.destroked.com (http://www.destroked.com)

The 6.9's and the non powerstroke 7.3's are pretty weak but not as bad as a GM 6.2 or 6.5.One of the main reasons everybody is "destroking" is that the cummins engines are cheaper and easier to find when it comes time for an engine.Dodge cant build a truck that will last as long as the engine does.A 150K mile cummins around here can be had for $1000-$1200 and a equal miled psd will be $1800-$2200 or more

For conversons the cummins 4&6BT's are the way to go hands down due to their simplicity.I see people making jokes about the powerstrokes but mine has 370K on it and has been a very good engine.They just have more electronics on them which makes a conversion usin them almost impossible.

I wouldnt waste my time or money trying to use a 6.2 or 6.5 GM diesel.

Disclaimer-I am not talking about the newer 6.0's and 6.4's Power strokes as they have lot's of problems.I am only talking about the 7.3 Power Strokes.

[BGW]

Dodge cant build a truck that will last as long as the engine does.


Yay! Someone here shares my opinion!

[COLOFIREMAN]

Yay! Someone here shares my opinion!


Well I agree with you two as well!! If Ford was to ever pair with CAT, now that would be a mean truck!!! :thumbsup:

[vintagetrks]

IMHO DEFFINITELY THE CUMMINS :thumbsup:

[mattmopar440]

Minor correction here.
Most Cummins 4BT do not come with a GM bolt pattern.
The Cummins uses a Bellhousing adapter which goes between the engine and bellhousing, and there are many many versions available.

GM
Ford small block pattern
at least 2 Dodge Patterns

Yes I know that cummins has there own bolt pattern.
I've seen 4bt in ford vans, but the most common trans I've ever seen bolted to them is a TH400 every time I run into one it's bolt to a TH400 out of an old chevy box van or has nothing bolted to it and it's attach to a generator

[710 Burner]

Keep in mind that if you use a 4L80E you will need to use the transfer case that comes with it or have an adapter made to use the transfer case you want. I have been unable to find one ready-made.

[Eugene 1]

Well I agree with you two as well!! If Ford was to ever pair with CAT, now that would be a mean truck!!! :thumbsup:

my dodge truck runs just fine and makes more power than most of the "other" 360s:)
abd you still see lot of them on the road (Cummins) 1st gen as well as 2nd.

[CutterN55]

These are pretty sick. Thinking about doing it down the road. Lots of guys are talking about them being hard to find or expensive. Not really. Govliquidations.com. The military "la""la""la""la""la"cans tow tractors all the time to DERMO and most of them have these in them. Most are for sale for $150.00- You pick up. Check it out...

[KyooMac]

The question was I have a 4L80E and without spending too much money, what diesel can I adopt?

Without spending too much money.

[rawdave]

I've had Ford guys tell me their next truck will have a cummins.

[710 Burner]

A 4L80E will bolt up to a GM Detroit 6.2/6.5L. The problem is that no one makes a T/C adapter for the 4L80. You would have to get a machinist to help you there or use a T/C from a Chev-GMC truck.

Ooops, sorry, I'm typing, not reading.

[EnigmaticEngineer]

I am personally going to be doing a diesel swap in the near future so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

One person in this thread mentioned One little thing that it seems no one else thought to mention, Mercedes.

Mercedes came out with a Wonderful diesel engine called the OM617 in the late 70's and they are known for going well over 500,000 miles (saw a video of a Mercedes with 770,xxx and it still fired up like the day it was new) and supposedly had No major work done, just basic routine maintainence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OM617 Wikipedia Article

I love the Cummins Engines, and I know many have swapped 4bt's and 6bt's into Waggys, cherokees, CJ's, YJ's, etc so don't get me wrong...

But I did a lot of research and put a ton of thought into this before I decided to go with the OM617 Mercedes Turbo Diesel.

3 Liters. 5 Cylinders. No Computers. Around 100hp and around 180ft lbs (the Pump and Boost can be 'turned up' a notch to make over 200ft lbs and Diesels do it at Low Rpm so its perfect for having power on the trail when you need it, IMHO)

For me, a MAJOR deciding factor was that Some of the Mercedes that carry this engine Get over 35mpg and weigh close to 4000 pounds...Our Waggy's are a bit heaver than that, but I still think I can get close to 30mpg when my swap is done.

You can purchase a good running Complete Mercedes 300D (whole car) with everything you'd need for a swap (Transmission, shift linkages/clutch pedal/etc) for less than you can typically purchase a 4bt or 6bt Engine alone.

I am choosing to run a divorced transfercase (NP 205) off of the stock Mercedes Transmission (Preferably a 5 speed in my case, but will work with an OD automatic if thats what comes my way)

Plenty of power, not overweight (compared to the Cummins equipment) and Awesome mileage...plus the possibilities to run it on WVO, Bio, Commercial Diesel, or Even Propane.

Personally, I am not a fan of Ford/Chevy Diesels. I agree with a previous poster that in basically stock trim, they are underpowered and overweight with too many little problems for me to want to mess with. (Fords and Glow Plug problems I have personally experienced in 2 different situations and older chevys wouldn't pull a sick kid off a toilet)

So...if I was in your boat of wanting to do a diesel swap, I would trade the Transmission you have for a divorced transfercase and find a Mercedes 300D to take the powertrain from and slip it in. ;)

I think for me it is going to be a virtually painless engine swap (motor mounts, transmission crossmember, hang a divorced transfercase and have drivelines made). Ive done a few swaps in my life so far and This one should be much easier than the BBC502 in an S-10 I did about 4 years ago.

Just my opinions, when I discoverd the om617 it was literally love at first sight and I'm VERY impressed with their reliability.

Nathan.

[joe]

I am personally going to be doing a diesel swap in the near future so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

One person in this thread mentioned One little thing that it seems no one else thought to mention, Mercedes.Nathan.
The300d will barely move a 3600lb 123 series body let alone a half ton heavier FSJ.
Good motors but not enough for a FSJ unless you don't have freeway on ramps where you live.
The MB dsl motor you want is the inline 5 cyl from an early Sprinter Van or the later used V6 dsl but who can afford that just to save a few mpgs?

[uglyjeep]

I've driven a Mercedes 300d. It belonged to my great grandpa, and he bought it new. Because he was very old he drove it very little, so it has low mileage. It now belongs to my uncle (who builds diesel rockcrawlers for a living - so maintanence is not an issue).

That thing is slow!

The '82 Chevy c3500 flatbed that my 6.2 came from is a race car by comparison :eek: . Yes the Mercedes is an auto and the Chevy a manual - but that Mercedes is still a snail (but it does gets close to 40mpg...).

[EnigmaticEngineer]

I have recently driven multiple in my search for a low mileage 300D. I personally wouldn't describe what I experienced as Slow...Certainly not Fast by Any measure, but not slow...0-60 times are just over 12 seconds with your foot in it. I personally don't consider that Slow for 3600 pounds and close to 40mpg.

One reason the car feels slow is one of the most common rear gear ratio's for a 300D is around 2.8 to 1 (2.65 to 3.07 depending on year and model) with a top speed around 110mph...torque multiplication helps acceleration significantly and the 300D's were certainly set up for economical daily driving, not to be a 'fast' car. It takes a LOT of torque to make Any vehicle with gearing around the 3.0's to feel Fast (as its not being Multiplied by as much a factor before it is delivered to the wheels...)

If you are running 33's or 35's and say, 4.11 gears, the 4 speed auto behind an OM617 will still deliver highway speeds and close to or over 30mpg in a Waggy (a 5 speed manual would be better still). Personally, I'm not looking to drag race a lifted, larger tire'd vehicle or cruise at 95mph. I'll take out the S-10 if I want to haul booty (at Speedworld Raceway in Surprise, Az. usually...was a BBC, now a 406SBC)

Another point, it is easy to have the pump squirt more go juice and have the turbo stuff it all in a little harder and significantly increase power output without sacrificing reliability under normal operating conditions. The AMG version cranked out some SERIOUS power (over 400hp)

Sorry to rant, but even looking at the OM617 swaps on Youtube clearly show that you can move a 4000+lb vehicle pretty well...

The fact is, with out purchasing anything aftermarket, it would be simple to make more torque than Any V6 or I6 that was ever installed in Any Wagoneer from the factory...(more boost, more fuel) If you consider the AMC 4.2 (approx 240ft lbs) engine a slow, inferior power plant then we are in agreement, it would be Slow.

A larger turbo + injection pump work (swap the elements for the larger versions offered and again, turn up the full load fuel delivery) and make similar or more torque compared to any stock V8 that came in any Wagoneer (over 400ftlbs) at the cost of efficiency... which is Not what I am looking to do, personally, but could be done none the less.

I certainly respect your opinions on the matter, I just happen to disagree. Check out youtube, some pretty nice OM617 swaps and even some 0-60 runs.

I hope this post is not taken the wrong way, I am not trying to ruffle feathers, but I am Confident in my decision to swap in a Turbocharged OM617. It will easily generate around 250ft lbs (or more on demand for short time use by using a boost controller as opposed to its current setup for limiting boost pressures) and adjusting the amount of fuel it delivers when boosted to those levels. They make 180ftlbs at 2400rpm Stock, limited to approx 8psi from the factory (most people seem to measure them waste gating around 7psi factory)

One more detail i checked on was that it weighs virtually the Same as a Built 401 (technically a few pounds less with a Claimed weight of 565 and the 401 tipping the scales with a claimed 601)

If you cruise Diesel forums, you will find Many Scouts, Cherokees, Comanche Trucks, Full size blazers, full size trucks, too many to list, that have OM617's that are 'turned up' and make well over 200ftlbs with only 12psi...the stock turbos will go up to around 18 or so I've read, though I never like to push equipment to its Actual limits.

Do consider that 4bt's only make 215ftlbs stock....and that is a Very popular FSJ swap...(and thats the highest Stock torque number I saw, many versions of the 4bt make less than 200ftlbs from the factory)

I can have an acceptable mileage Full running 300TD complete car for 2k or less and have every last little part (other than bits of steel for remaking brackets/crossmembers/motormounts/etc) to do the swap.

Again, sorry to rant...I feel I've done my homework and there are still many other reasons I find this engine handy (Max engine rpm is Significantly higher than the 4bt for getting the tires spinning in the mud, for another). I see this engine as a Lighter Weight Equally Powered Equally Reliable Much Cheaper 4bt.
Nathan

P.S. Absolutely NO disrespect meant to the posters (and non posters) who disagree with me and to be clear, I LOVE the 4bt and 6bt engines for many reasons, I'm just in love with the overall package the OM617 delivers for a fraction of the 4bt cost (at market value, special awesome deals excluded from that statement ;) )

[AMC-J/20]

My vote Cummins diesel !

Check this out:
http://www.oramagazine.com/archive/2004/08-august/0103-tech-finesse-2.asp

Mike

[e_digg]

I had a MB 300D. It was the "Worlds Fastest Tractor":eek:

[bigun]

Well this makes 2 diesel threads running right now that I know of for those who keep on about the 4BT have youseen the prices? Copy and pasted from thread running the general area
Actually there are several adapters out there for the MB engine
one uses the AX 15 found behind late model jeeps if you get a 94 and up the slave is on the outside you can buy an clocking ring that will allow you to run the D300 transfer case!
Adapter
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10388

Clocking ring
http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_153.htm

Diesel forums of interest

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/


http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/index.php

[RCB]

I keep hearing about the expense of 4bts. While brand new ones are the typical price of any new diesel engine, I have found many 4bt's for a very reasonable price. Of course, living in close proximity to Cummins headquarters probably helps out a bit with availability, but still.

I was torn between a Mercedes and Cummins at the outset, but for me, there seemed to be more options and better documentation for the 4bt swaps and issues.

There is a guy around here with the mercedes in his Jeep and it does pretty good from what he says.

In the end I still have to vote for the Cummins.

[Badawg]

Have you considered a marine dsl? I have done swaps to boats with dual marine Gm 350s. Engines used were Yanmar 4 cyl Turbos.

It could be expensive to buy a new one, but the chances of finding a used one is pretty good.

[EnigmaticEngineer]

I am by no means stating that the MB om617 is the Best Engine Out There...and there are many advantages to the 4bt, but around these parts...a Running, High Mileage 4bt with No trans is a minimum of $2000 bucks. I have 3 options right now on craigslist for 500 bucks Running, driving MB 300SD's. Throw on a proper side drop divorced transfercase and make shafts...just my opinion ;)

Nathan

[joe]

Money is important for sure but so is power/driveability and keep in mind all USA 300D's came with an AT and though the 300 is a good motor the AT adds to it's serious dog reputation so you'll need a manual tran/clutchs and flywheel set up on top of the $500 for the motor.

[poolmike]

Cummins is the only real industrial diesel out of the big three. Powerstroke and Duramax are both good engines for trucks, but at the end of the day they are not built for industrial applications.

A 4BT is a perfect match for a FSJ. A 6 would be great if you can make it work.

[EnigmaticEngineer]

Money is important for sure but so is power/driveability and keep in mind all USA 300D's came with an AT and though the 300 is a good motor the AT adds to it's serious dog reputation so you'll need a manual tran/clutchs and flywheel set up on top of the $500 for the motor.

Are you sure that All came with Auto's? I saw one for sale the other day (too clean and too pricey to hack up) that had a 5 speed in it here in AZ...(not claiming its a USA car, just happened to notice the 5 speed trans instead of the auto)

I was hoping that I would Find a 5 speed car when I do my swap....that might be out the window though lol.

Thanks for the tid bit :D
Nathan

[Towtruck]

The 4 cylinder Isuzu NPR engines are a no brainer if you're not stuck on four wheel drive. The later engines are available in 175 and 205 horsepower versions. Transmission is an overdrive automatic or six speed O/D manual. Spectacular setup for a tow vehicle or commuter. If you must have 4wd...somebody should snap up that setup from Jeepinpete. Why anyone would put an ancient technology 4bt in a vehicle when these state of the art gems are available at a decent price is...puzzling...

[poolmike]

The 4 cylinder Isuzu NPR engines are a no brainer if you're not stuck on four wheel drive. The later engines are available in 175 and 205 horsepower versions. Transmission is an overdrive automatic or six speed O/D manual. Spectacular setup for a tow vehicle or commuter. If you must have 4wd...somebody should snap up that setup from Jeepinpete. Why anyone would put an ancient technology 4bt in a vehicle when these state of the art gems are available at a decent price is...puzzling...

The 4bt is a simple machine. No tech/low tech is really nice. No glow plug nonsense, no wiring, etc. It is a simple swap.

[RCB]

The 4bt is a simple machine. No tech/low tech is really nice. No glow plug nonsense, no wiring, etc. It is a simple swap.

Absolutely. You have a lot of options with it. There are many more powerful options, but I prefer straight forward engines that are easy to work on with good parts availability. Some engines are not so much fun to get parts for.

[j-10 junkie]

Not to complicate the question here but I knew of a local guy that had a 3208 Caterpillar V-8 diesel in a chevy 1 ton that used it to haul farm tractors to Mexico for resell. Don't recall what trans he was running. But recall looking under the hood at the installation and looked like a pretty straight forward setup. I do recall that for the weight he was pulling and the engine weight he had to add some additional springs, front and rear. I do know that these cat diesels came in a one eighty horse power and a two ten. Have know idea of the weight or what transmissions would fit. I know some people thought that these engines had reliability issues. But, I also knew a local man that ran these engines exclusively in tandem axle grain trucks that got excellent reliability from them with just good maintenance. AS far as I know, the older engines required no computers and are very plentiful, as they came in a lot of ford medium duty trucks and all kinds of tractors and AG equipment.

Just a thought....

[Towtruck]

The 3208 is too big to fit the space. Not a great engine to start with in my experience (twins in a boat).

But on the subject of marine applications, here's a link to a variation of the GM/Hummer 6.5 that would fit...supercharged (not turbo) V8 in a nice package. Used to be built in Stillwater Oklahoma...not sure if they've moved assembly to Sweden or not. Expensive, of course, but very interesting concept if you're a techie...check it out. I'd prefer it to the Yanmar six for a boat...or a truck. Check out their twin supercharged 6.6 Duramax hot rod...

http://www.marinedieselengineering.com/md/

[BGW]

I'm going to look into the dimensions of a Ford 6.9. They're cheaper than 7.3s around here and there aren't as many electronics. I wonder if I could shoehorn one in the J20 I've been looking at.

[MAPit]

Go with a 93-98 P pump Cummins 6BT They have the best reputation for being able to upgrade and for not falling apart. You can also find some sort of adapeter plate or bell housing to fit them to almost any trans. finley excpt for the fuel pump. the moter was the same from 89 to 98 so you have 9 years worth of engines to pull parts off of. My 91 6bt with a 727 3speed gets 20mpg. A stock 4bt is going to be a DOG when compared to the 6bt. and if you want more power your going to end up with the same fuel mileage.

[bronco23]

i say 6bt cummins for the fact that the 4bt looks goofy under the hood with so much extra space that if lifted you wont be able to reach anything and the fact that you can find gen 1 matted to the TF727 would say that would be less fab work and save on that 500 dollar adapter and you keep your t case trans and axels :) down side is you will be forced to lift it and put bigger tires so so so sorry

[Tigger4X]

Go with a 93-98 P pump Cummins 6BT They have the best reputation for being able to upgrade and for not falling apart. You can also find some sort of adapeter plate or bell housing to fit them to almost any trans. finley excpt for the fuel pump. the moter was the same from 89 to 98 so you have 9 years worth of engines to pull parts off of. My 91 6bt with a 727 3speed gets 20mpg. A stock 4bt is going to be a DOG when compared to the 6bt. and if you want more power your going to end up with the same fuel mileage.


I have just started to get my toes wet in the diesel pond so forgive the foot in mouth if you would. What is the advantage of the 12V vs the 24V 6BT? From what I have read getting a late '98 thru '02 6BT and P-pumping it gave the best results while keeping the mods down. I'm not looking for shear foot stompin' black smoke throwin' power. For me its about getting the highest MPGs and loooong term reliability; having some power in reserve is nice when towing or running a good incline too. By going with a HD NV4500 will the MPGs improve over the TF727? I figured the OD would help out with the freeway milage. There is the 6 speed NV but I didnt see much advantage to it. Do you know what T-cases can run behind the NV trans besides the 241? From what I found the 241DHD with the PTO option was the strongest they had. Of course budget is big for my build so I'm betting I'll have to cobble something together.

[joe]

Are you sure that All came with Auto's?

Thanks for the tid bit :D
Nathan
All the ones built for export to the US were At's. A lot of Euro models have been brought over though but they're hard to find especially with the 5 spd. Even the 240D's built for export didn't get the 5 spds just the 4 spds or AT's They are around though. My neighbor has a 240d and a 300td(wagon) with five speeds both were brought over by different retiring military lifers stationed in Europe.
If you must run the 300D motor and want a manual just use a 4spd trans from a 240D(very common) and use the 240 flywheel with it. Works just fine and the MB 4 speed is bullet proof except for the hyd clutch slave.

[joe]

The 3208 is too big to fit the space. Not a great engine to start with in my experience (twins in a boat).
I agree. I've run lots of boats with twin 3208's and they are huge.

[MAPit]

I have just started to get my toes wet in the diesel pond so forgive the foot in mouth if you would. What is the advantage of the 12V vs the 24V 6BT? From what I have read getting a late '98 thru '02 6BT and P-pumping it gave the best results while keeping the mods down. I'm not looking for shear foot stompin' black smoke throwin' power. For me its about getting the highest MPGs and loooong term reliability; having some power in reserve is nice when towing or running a good incline too. By going with a HD NV4500 will the MPGs improve over the TF727? I figured the OD would help out with the freeway milage. There is the 6 speed NV but I didnt see much advantage to it. Do you know what T-cases can run behind the NV trans besides the 241? From what I found the 241DHD with the PTO option was the strongest they had. Of course budget is big for my build so I'm betting I'll have to cobble something together.

Nothing you have found the best Power with out going to a commen rail 24v. Just keep in mind a P pump runs around $1,200 for a rebuilt unit. you can find a decent P pump motter for that much. If your not looking for MAXUM power i a 12V should do fine. But I am NO expert. As for the Transmissions I have to think the more gears the better your econmie I have a 727 behind my 91 VEpump 12v and am geting 20mpg But i Really want to go manual so Have not been looking at the Autos.

[Tigger4X]

It still leaves me wondering if I would be better off holding out for a 24V instead of a 12V. Again I'm not looking for rompin stompin power, but wanting some power in reserve for hills and towing which is gonna serve my MPGs and power needs the best? Is it worth it so save money on the upfront purchase of a 12V and throw a bit extra at it to wake it up? I was told that the late '98 thru 2000 5.9s were 24V which also meant they had a computer on them, but it could be eliminated by by swapping out to a P-pump which makes the entire engine mechanical, save two wires for power only.

[Bill Moore]

Have you considered a marine dsl? I have done swaps to boats with dual marine Gm 350s. Engines used were Yanmar 4 cyl Turbos.

It could be expensive to buy a new one, but the chances of finding a used one is pretty good. where do the used yanmar engines come from? wrecked tractors?

[Bill Moore]

Cummins is the only real industrial diesel out of the big three. Powerstroke and Duramax are both good engines for trucks, but at the end of the day they are not built for industrial applications.

A 4BT is a perfect match for a FSJ. A 6 would be great if you can make it work.

good point, and the mechanical ones to boot, from what I have read the electronic versions have been cheapened considerably and dodge may have a body now that lasts as long as their engine!

[tndonor]

You can adapt the 4l80e to a Cummins with a GM auto adapter. They are going for around 500 give or take. If you put a 6BT in front of it, you will really have to leave it stockish.....they cant take the power (torque) and be expected to live long. You will also need to think of a torque convertor with a lower stall speed for the Diesel application. You can build a 4L80e to handle power....it is just $$$$ and you might as well get a 47rh/re at that point.

If you put a 4B in front of it, no worries.

You will still need a stand alone controller if your unit didnt have the stand alone from the factory.

My 0.02

[tndonor]

Cummins is the only real industrial diesel out of the big three. Powerstroke and Duramax are both good engines for trucks, but at the end of the day they are not built for industrial applications.

A 4BT is a perfect match for a FSJ. A 6 would be great if you can make it work.


Yes sir.....they are the only engine (mentioned for this purpose) to get a medium duty rating based on expected service life:thumbsup:

[iroc86]

Cummins is the only real industrial diesel out of the big three. Powerstroke and Duramax are both good engines for trucks, but at the end of the day they are not built for industrial applications.

Yes sir.....they are the only engine (mentioned for this purpose) to get a medium duty rating based on expected service life:thumbsup:

While not one of the Big Three, the medium-duty Isuzu 4BD1(-T) started life as combination industrial/truck engine in the late '70s, used in everything from excavators and boats to box trucks and Land Rovers. A manual GM transmission adapter exists for these industrial Isuzus, too.

[Eugene 1]

While not one of the Big Three, the medium-duty Isuzu 4BD1(-T) started life as combination industrial/truck engine in the late '70s, used in everything from excavators and boats to box trucks and Land Rovers. A manual GM transmission adapter exists for these industrial Isuzus, too.

Isuzu makes the Duramax don't they ? or designed or something like that ?

[Pavementsux91XJ]

It still leaves me wondering if I would be better off holding out for a 24V instead of a 12V. Again I'm not looking for rompin stompin power, but wanting some power in reserve for hills and towing which is gonna serve my MPGs and power needs the best? Is it worth it so save money on the upfront purchase of a 12V and throw a bit extra at it to wake it up? I was told that the late '98 thru 2000 5.9s were 24V which also meant they had a computer on them, but it could be eliminated by by swapping out to a P-pump which makes the entire engine mechanical, save two wires for power only.

I'd go with the 12 valve if your not going with a full race application. I have driven VE and P pumped 12 valces and I can tell you that my 24V with a chip will run circles around them BUT... The install would be much more complex, plus, if your going to P pump the 24 V, you would lose most (not all, but most) of the reason for getting the 24 valve. Add into that that most 98 and 99 and some 00 and 01 24v should be out of the question due to the "53" code brazil block that likes to crack and your going to have a hard time finding a good one. I can tell you that a bone stock 4wd 2500 dodge extra cab long bed has power to spare with the P pump, which means in something as light as a j-truck, that engine will have PLENTY of power.

Something for everybody to keep in mind though. These diesel engines were built to tow in trucks, or for the economy in cars. Other than the new CRD engines, they are not rocket ships. Bone stock they are only going to rev to about 3 grand and it will take them awhile to get there. Its in their design and the fuel they use. I'm not going with a diesel swap, even though I am a diesel mechanic, for just that reason. Gas engines are for horsepower and fast revs, diesels are for torque and pulling. Use your Jeep for mud much? You'll be watching your turbos puke up there turbine wheels. Live in a cold place? startings gonna be fun. I hate to burst anybodys bubble, but those diesels you see in the magazines have a ton of $$$ put into them to make them handle that power. And if your not a diesel mechanic, repairs are more expensive. If the injection pump goes out or starts leaking which will happen to the older pumps when run on the new standard ULSD diesel or bio-juice, your looking at $1000 plus to fix it for parts alone.

I'll get off my soap box now. I've just seen way too many people buy diesels to be cool and think that out of the box they act like the ones in the magazines only to end up either selling them because they can't afford the repairs or blow them up because they don't know what theyre doing.

[joe]

I

Something for everybody to keep in mind though. These diesel engines were built to tow in trucks, or for the economy in cars. Other than the new CRD engines, they are not rocket ships. Bone stock they are only going to rev to about 3 grand and it will take them awhile to get there. Its in their design and the fuel they use. I'm not going with a diesel swap, even though I am a diesel mechanic, for just that reason. Gas engines are for horsepower and fast revs, diesels are for torque and pulling. Use your Jeep for mud much? You'll be watching your turbos puke up there turbine wheels. Live in a cold place? startings gonna be fun. I hate to burst anybodys bubble, but those diesels you see in the magazines have a ton of $$$ put into them to make them handle that power. And if your not a diesel mechanic, repairs are more expensive. If the injection pump goes out or starts leaking which will happen to the older pumps when run on the new standard ULSD diesel or bio-juice, your looking at $1000 plus to fix it for parts alone.

I'll get off my soap box now. I've just seen way too many people buy diesels to be cool and think that out of the box they act like the ones in the magazines only to end up either selling them because they can't afford the repairs or blow them up because they don't know what theyre doing.
Great reality check post.
I'm not a mechanic dsl or otherwise but have owned a few and worked dsl boats for years. Dsl motors are great for pull power and mpgs as mentioned above but there is "nothing" cheap about dsl's. Be it buy-in, adapters, stock parts, hipo parts, shop time, etc etc Yeah mpgs are impressive compared to gas but if filling your gas tank for $100 is hurting you then you can't afford a dsl swap either. Save your swap money for gaso. I love dsl's but they're not for the 'light of wallet' If you really want to swap buy whatever you can afford in good condition regardless of flavor, deal with the swap costs then deal with the other issues as they come up.
Yup those magazine dsl trucks you see at the drap strip or pulling buildings off their foundation are way cool and prolly cost more than your house. Those aren't getting 400,000 miles between rebuilds either.

Before dsl dreaming know your litations: financially and mechanically.

[lobie]

Don't understand why y'all say a diesel is more difficult to work on. They are the most simple motor in the world. Yes they cost more to repair but you get what you pay for. Reliablity. Why do we want a diesel from a mag. We don't. We want something with reliability and mild torque. We're not trying to pull sleds. This isn't the compition diesel form. As far as the ULSD goes just use 2 stroke oil as a supplement. You can read about it on the cummins forum. Not a big deal.

If anyone is interested in diesels.... Go for it. Do some research. Go to 4bt swaps or the cummins forum. And read.

[Pavementsux91XJ]

I hope nobody takes my post as a "Don't do it or I'll think your stupid" post. I'm just trying to give the "con" side of the argument. I personally do think older diesels (tier 0, 1, 2) are easier to work on than gas engines. There are plenty of reasons to do a diesel swap. I am not the utmost authority on diesel swaps, but I am a journeyman equipment mechanic in charge of a fleet of diesel powered trucks and tractors. I've worked on cats, cummins, deere, internationals, kubotas, yanmars, etc. My goal there was kind of a reality check. They cost big $$. I can rebuild an injection pump, but they are alot more complex than carbs. For instance, you rebuild a stanadyme pump like are on the Deeres and Internationals and you put the governer in backwards (very easy to do) and those engines will rev to 8000 RPM with NO way to shut them down until they finally blow up. My gf just bought an old ram 50 with a leaky pump. That pump costs 1200, parts alone. We only got it because I know a seal kit is $100 and I can rebuild the Bosch VE pumps. The 2 stroke oil trick works to prolong the life of the mechanical parts of the pumps, not the seals. The new ULSD diesel is actually B2.5 (2.5% bio diesel) The older ones will evantually leak, trust me, I have a fleet of 50 tractors and the older pumps (pre 94ish) have puked their guts out.

Like I said, I don't want to say dont do it, but I am saying, be prepared, do your homework, and make sure its what you really want before you dump big $$ into a swap and regret it.

I just realized I am completely hijacking this post, my bad!

[Bill Moore]

I hope nobody takes my post as a "Don't do it or I'll think your stupid" post. I'm just trying to give the "con" side of the argument. I personally do think older diesels (tier 0, 1, 2) are easier to work on than gas engines. There are plenty of reasons to do a diesel swap. I am not the utmost authority on diesel swaps, but I am a journeyman equipment mechanic in charge of a fleet of diesel powered trucks and tractors. I've worked on cats, cummins, deere, internationals, kubotas, yanmars, etc. My goal there was kind of a reality check. They cost big $$. I can rebuild an injection pump, but they are alot more complex than carbs. For instance, you rebuild a stanadyme pump like are on the Deeres and Internationals and you put the governer in backwards (very easy to do) and those engines will rev to 8000 RPM with NO way to shut them down until they finally blow up. My gf just bought an old ram 50 with a leaky pump. That pump costs 1200, parts alone. We only got it because I know a seal kit is $100 and I can rebuild the Bosch VE pumps. The 2 stroke oil trick works to prolong the life of the mechanical parts of the pumps, not the seals. The new ULSD diesel is actually B2.5 (2.5% bio diesel) The older ones will evantually leak, trust me, I have a fleet of 50 tractors and the older pumps (pre 94ish) have puked their guts out.

Like I said, I don't want to say dont do it, but I am saying, be prepared, do your homework, and make sure its what you really want before you dump big $$ into a swap and regret it.

I just realized I am completely hijacking this post, my bad!

I appreciated your posts, what it said to me is, buy the right engine, put it in for the right reasons, and here are some tips. I had this conversation with a buddy of mine thats doing some of the conversion work I dont have time for at the moment. He builds rock crawlers and doesnt understand the logic of the 4bt, he wants big gas engines, or built ones and horsepower. Im looking for durability, miles per gallon, flexibility of fuel supply, simplicity of design and no electronics, like to put in air starts, but the cost is significant. I baby my vehicles and maintain them well, but not a perfectionist, although unless there is a flaw, or catastrophic failure, I figure a 4bt repower is a lifetime conversion. I like that idea. Plus it has plenty of power to do the job, all the while getting 25 to 30 mpg.

[iroc86]

Isuzu makes the Duramax don't they ? or designed or something like that ?

Yes, that's right. This page (http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/duramax_diesel.htm) describes the GM-Isuzu relationship pretty well.

[seamus]

I'd go with the 12 valve if your not going with a full race application. I have driven VE and P pumped 12 valces and I can tell you that my 24V with a chip will run circles around them BUT... The install would be much more complex, plus, if your going to P pump the 24 V, you would lose most (not all, but most) of the reason for getting the 24 valve. Add into that that most 98 and 99 and some 00 and 01 24v should be out of the question due to the "53" code brazil block that likes to crack and your going to have a hard time finding a good one. I can tell you that a bone stock 4wd 2500 dodge extra cab long bed has power to spare with the P pump, which means in something as light as a j-truck, that engine will have PLENTY of power.

Something for everybody to keep in mind though. These diesel engines were built to tow in trucks, or for the economy in cars. Other than the new CRD engines, they are not rocket ships. Bone stock they are only going to rev to about 3 grand and it will take them awhile to get there. Its in their design and the fuel they use. I'm not going with a diesel swap, even though I am a diesel mechanic, for just that reason. Gas engines are for horsepower and fast revs, diesels are for torque and pulling. Use your Jeep for mud much? You'll be watching your turbos puke up there turbine wheels. Live in a cold place? startings gonna be fun. I hate to burst anybodys bubble, but those diesels you see in the magazines have a ton of $$$ put into them to make them handle that power. And if your not a diesel mechanic, repairs are more expensive. If the injection pump goes out or starts leaking which will happen to the older pumps when run on the new standard ULSD diesel or bio-juice, your looking at $1000 plus to fix it for parts alone.

I'll get off my soap box now. I've just seen way too many people buy diesels to be cool and think that out of the box they act like the ones in the magazines only to end up either selling them because they can't afford the repairs or blow them up because they don't know what theyre doing.

Ve pumped 12v's can be strong performers, especially if they are in a vehicle that weighs 2500 lbs less than my 2005 3500.
The real advantage of the 12v is simplicity and longevity, neither of which can be applied to the common rail engines.

My 12v should be about 350 hp 600+lbft when everything is done, it should be a reasonable performer

[lobie]

Ve pumped 12v's can be strong performers, especially if they are in a vehicle that weighs 2500 lbs less than my 2005 3500.
The real advantage of the 12v is simplicity and longevity, neither of which can be applied to the common rail engines.

My 12v should be about 350 hp 600+lbft when everything is done, it should be a reasonable performer

Agree. The 12v is a great engine. I am using the VE pump and think it is plenty for the application. The p pump is just an added bonus!

[ReevesDiesel]

Wow, there are a ton of opinions on this thread. I guess the reality is, it all boils down to brand preference, all of the engine choices discussed are excellent engines and will render years of reliable service.

I have experience with multiple conversions and I have not had the courage to use a 4l80e, to my knowledge the entire transmission is designed for high revving gas/diesel engines. I guess I fear I will never get the shift points in the right place. I typically use the 4bt or 6bt, I have installed both engines in fsj's. So I opt for the 47RH and the TF727.

There is no doubt in my mind that the early Cummins engine are as simple as they come. With minimul effort scourcing parts does not have to be overly expensive.

If at all possible I would recommend seeking out running vehicles with the different engine choices you are contemplating. At the very least hear them crank up and run. Ultimatley, I earge you to get behind the wheel of them and see how the different choices feel to you. It could make all the difference!
Aaron Reeves

[The PIG Smith]

Welcome Aaron Reeves!
I've been watching your projects on Facebook and very impressed with you work and attention to detail.

[ReevesDiesel]

Oh, thanks man. We sure have fun, it does not always go as planed but we always make it work!

[Towtruck]

I'm holding out for the GM 4.5 V8. Any rumors?

[Towtruck]

Isuzu 4bd fans should check out the engine that went into this Ford pickup...vicinity of page 36 in the string....mega power and 30 mpg. Also as discussed in the Street /Performance section below, it appears this Crown Vic IFS swap would work on a FSJ. (Thanks, Bigun)

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/716058-buildup-06-crown-vic-front-suspension-into-67-f100.html

[Carnuck]

4BT for simplicity. Nissan SD33T (non-turbo was available from the factory J10s except in the US)

Did you guys know Mack trucks run Renault diesels?

[billyj7175]

I'm holding out for the GM 4.5 V8. Any rumors?

I'm late in the game here, but I sold the tube-steps off of my 08' Silverado to a guy that works for GM (not sure where exactly he worked). We got to bs'ing and he mentioned that before the economy tanked and the great-bail-out occurred, GM had a smaller diesel (he called it the mini-max) in the works, aimed at the 1/2 truck and suburban/tahoe line. Whether or not there's any truth to that I have no idea...