Elliott, I think the prob. w/ the 401 is....

[ColeTrickle]

the numbers...

Now this isn't a post to slam ya or to take light of the research that you've done to improve the knowledge of these engines ;) .

BUT, from the posts that I've read EVERYTHING is purely numbers...

Now take a stand back and see all this from my perspective. These numbers don't have a meaning to me unless I see it. (Seeing is believing)
From your recent posts it seems your an Engineer. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have dealt with engineers before and they have a strong affinity for numbers=facts.

I want hard compounded proof that what you say will work, CAN. Reality, not dyno, not software.

Of course you would probably say the numbers speak for themselves...on the contrary.

What would the difference be for me climbing a 1' ledge on a 55d incline @ 5mph in my AMC 360 than the same with your 401?

What improvement would I enhance to my driving skill/and my Jeep, if I was to drive/pull a buddy out of a creek bed?

With the Jeep in question cockeyed in a rivine, with axles flexed out in either directions, just how much more effort is gonna be required to get you or me out in a timely manner?

Now, what is all this gonna cost me? A 360 that I can get anywhere for a dime a dozen or an overpriced dinosaur that I may have fear in overheating?

Give us some real life scennarios to back up all your claims of strick numbers to force feed us believing that the 401 is truely an amazing motor.

[ December 14, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[Bobbo]

Dang, bunch of 401 haters. I don't know the numbers, but I have 2 360s and a 401. The 401 has never been rebuilt. I know one 360 has been bored and has a 4 barrel carb. The 401 has way more power than the 360. I don't know jack about the numbers, but I do know what I have. And I know what I like. BTW they all run at the same temperature. I'm not saying the 401 is a miricle motor, but there is a differance, and to me that differance is worth the extra time and effort to find a 401. If you don't want one I say good! That makes it easier for me to find another one!

[Bobbo]

360=loser
401=winner
That is what it all comes down to! LOL

[Rogue]

401 is a factory hot rod plain and simple

is the expense justified??? - that's a personal decision, a 360 AMC is no slouch

is the price of converting a cheaper engine to build ( chebby for example) actually cheaper? think custom motor mounts, tranny swaps, etc, etc - sure you can do it cheaply by jury rigging but i've seen pics of that kind of work and its nothing i personally would want to be stuck in a ditch with

hate to break it to ya but a dyno is pretty Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley realistic

[Elliott]

Well, I have worked directly with engineers designing/building parts/tooling for the Boeing 777 on which I installed the wings to the fuselage. I'm just a mechanic and I pay attention to the details which some seem to miss because of a predisposed bias. When I have a interest in something I research it and then back up my ideas with as much information as I can.
I've built, non-professionally raced a number of machines and have experience with how bad the wrong person working on your can screw things up. That makes me pay attention to the details and when I built my 500ftlbs 401 I took my core to a machinist who not only raced AMC in his youth, but won with AMC and that probably has something to do with how well he cammed my motor for me.
You are dead on about the cost of building an AMC, but that only holds true to a point and then if you really want a durable high performace other motor it's going to run about the same amount.
The old 401 I had in my first '75 Cherokee Chief didn't burn oil, but had some serious miles on it before I swapped in an offy manifold and 625cfm carb. Because I have experience in cars fast enough to beat most of my competitors within certain perameters I know how to judge the torque difference put out by that 401 -vs- the next '81 Cherokee Laredo I replaced it with that I swapped on a Performer intake and same 625cfm carb. The 401 would whoop it good and from what I've read on the threads, most of the guys here with 401s now or in the past would agree. That's not to say the margin is wide but it would certainly be significant if you were using larger then stock tires and not changing axle ratio. I've also done hill climbing in snow chained up all the way around and I can tell you which Cherokee I'd rather be doing it in, the 401.
Jeeps4ever is going to be running some physical dynos, but again those will just be numbers won't they. So, that is why I also posted land speed records set by the Great White... more numbers I know.
Pay attention to the desktop dyno results that John V is working up also. More numbers, but you'll likely find the answer to: "What would the difference be for me climbing a 1' ledge on a 55d incline @ 5mph in my AMC 360 than the same with your 401?" Which is that the 401 hits the torque curver early and harder then the 360, that shouldn't be a suprise coming from a stroked 360.

Proof other then numbers? Well, I posted what I found out on the general discussion board about the Mud Puppy taking a 5 State Championship in bogging running a built 401.
Have you checked out Dave Allen Racing to see what he is running? Darn nice 401, couple of 'em.

I haven't been "force feeding" anybody anything. To the contrary I've read from a lot of guys that agree and I think the NAY say'rs are in the minority and don't have facts to back up their claims such as the 401 being a dinasour, etc. Do you ever spend anytime over at the AMC Racing forum studying potential or are you happy to sit back and let a couple of guys who have had some bad luck, lousy mechanics. etc. DICTATE to you that the 401 is "worthless".
I don't really care what your position is on the 401, seriously I don't, but the places that I've been posting about what I do know, have experience with and have researched to some extent are all threads on the 401 where discussion of the 401 has shown that it is a very capable motor.

"Give us some real life scennarios to back up all your claims of strick numbers to force feed us believing that the 401 is truely an amazing motor."

It's pretty hard to get a "dinasour" up to 217 mph in a street machine, if you don't think that is amazing then I don't know how I can really help you understand.

If you want to know how to really improve your driving skills I suggest running the 258, it's a darn good motor and it'll teach you quicker then hp/torque will.

There are a few people on the board here that just seem to have a hard time not saying "problem" in the same sentance as "401".

[ December 14, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[ColeTrickle]

Rogue Star, your opinions to me are pointless.

Remember this?
http://www.ifsja.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=011953;p=1

[Bobbo]

Elliott is so much better at this than me!

[Elliott]

Originally posted by Bobbo:
Elliott is so much better at this than me!But you know what you're talking about all the same 'cause you got 'em right there in your yard and you're driving 'em. They just don't understand because they need to hate, they hate so bad they can't stop reading about it, trying to tear it down.
Show me a 30+ year old motor that will keep up with the Great White's performance, just one.

The guy wants to kill all the 401 threads, but he can't stay off them and then starts another one. :rolleyes:

[ December 14, 2003, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[ColeTrickle]

"It's pretty hard to get a "dinasour" up to 217 mph in a street machine, if you don't think that is amazing then I don't know how I can really help you understand."

Where did I say this wasn't amazing?

BUT, where can I use 217 mph off pavement?

Where do Jeeps come into the equation where you need this type of build up?

What kind of costs are associated with that type of MPH?

When can I not stroke out a Ford 460 for the price your talking about and reach higher than torque figures you suggest...not to mention ease of parts AND AND AND readability.

Again, I'm not knocking your study. Just that you come off SOOOOOOOOOOOOO one sided and there isn't anything to tell you different.

What is this Elliott's Law 101?

[ December 14, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[Rogue]

sure do, not one of my finer moments, but what does that have to do with 401's and/or technical expertise - not opinions at all

[ColeTrickle]

Originally posted by Elliott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bobbo:
Elliott is so much better at this than me!But you know what you're talking about all the same 'cause you got 'em right there in your yard and you're driving 'em. They just don't understand because they need to hate, they hate so bad they can't stop reading about it, trying to tear it down.
Show me a 30+ year old motor that will keep up with the Great White's performance, just one.

The guy wants to kill all the 401 threads, but he can't stay off them and then starts another one. :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]LOL! :D No Elliott, I'm just the only guy that has the BALLS to tell ya that there ARE other makes out there that can be built up....

The 401 isn't KING! If it was, then they would've used it in the Viper now wouldn't they?

[ December 14, 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[youngjeeper]

maybe we should turn this into a chicken thread too smile.gif i really like KFC popcorn chicken, add a mountain dew and im in heaven

[Glenn_tx]

If it doesn't burn diesel, it isn't worth a darn anyway. Just my opinion. Gas motors are a necessary evil in these things. A 4bt or 6bt swap would be the only thing worth spending any dough on.

[joe]

Dayum...this is good popcorn. ;)

[ December 14, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: -joe ]

[ColeTrickle]

Now set me straight Elliott, this Great White was a 390? Do you see you accomplishing this in YOUR Jeep?

So why such the harshness in your replies?

And where do you find hate in my replies?

Is this about YOU being a puriest AMC fan?

[Retro93]

Originally posted by -joe:
Dayum...this is good popcorn. ;) I dunno..needs a little more salt and butter??? Whatcha think? ;)

[Retro93]

Originally posted by ColeTrickle:
Now set me straight Elliott, this Great White was a 390? Do you see you accomplishing this in YOUR Jeep?

So why such the harshness in your replies?

And where do you find hate in my replies?

Is this about YOU being a puriest AMC fan?Yeah..I was wondering the same??? :confused:

[ December 14, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Retro93 ]

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Back From the original 401 Topic Page 10: I bring this.

Originally posted by Elliott:
Here's a big block smoking AMC, read and weep:http://www.turboclub.com/MuscleCars/

Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:

Nothing to weep at there. Hardly Stock or close to it, I highly doubt that class of engine has much in the way of OEM AMC parts in it. Then there would be the fact that if you were to take the same $$$$ and put it in engines of choice the results could go either way. I know I am not Weeping.............Or Racing

Originally posted by Elliott:

You didn't read very far did you?

"Just for the record, we have now driven an AMC powered, AMC car, faster than anyone in automotive history. The fastest recorded AMC top speed was set by Craig Breedlove in 1968 at Bonneville, at 189 mph in a 68 AMX with a supercharged 390 V-8. We did 192 mph without a blower. He did that speed in a full-race, production car on a professional offroad course. We went faster with a street legal, stock-bodied production car. On street tires, through the mufflers and wearing a license plate."
"...for those who believe in American Motors, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe in AMC, no amount of explanation is possible."

[ December 11, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

Well I did read that LONG LONG time ago. Fact is it is not a STOCK MOTOR as I had said. In the first place. Here is a QUOTE I think you may have missed in your reading of the story.

Through state-of-the-art computer technology, and the skilled hands of those involved, ESI built us what has to be one of the most Wicked, "Super-Flow", dyno-proven AMC engines ever assembled. I could spend a month covering the depth of what was done, but I won't. Let's just say that it gave us a whole new level of AMC power and the confidence it would stay together. Since the whole project was mostly new research and development, the best way to predict the future is to invent it today.

Yup sounds like your run of the mill stock 390 AMC motor there alright!

I could post the Story about the 267 MPH Salt Flat racer powered by a 190 HP Caddy but really who cares :rolleyes:
By the way Tony is a great guy to talk to. He sells Original ALAMOSA BLUE Paint, last 360 I built up sure was PRETTY!!! Sorry thats the Early AMC Blue, to you who are not up on the AMC colors.

Anyhow Just wanted to share with everyone that YES I can read!!!!

[Al Johnson]

Wow, this thing is interesting. I'm not going to change anyone's mind here, but I'm going to toss in my change for a nickel.

I have very little experience doing hotrod stuff to engines. I'm usually too busy just trying to keep my junk running well enough to get to work and the grocery store. But, I seem to have acquired this taste for AMC motors. I like them. I like the 304, I like the 343, I like the 360, I like the 390, I like the 401, and I like all the sixes, as well.

I built a 360 for my Wrangler. First complete engine build. Came out great. I love it. Would I have built a 401 if I had the chance? Oh, yeah, you bet. I had a 401 in a Wag once, and it was old and tired, and still ran like an ape on a good day. So a fresh warmed up one would really honk. Besides, hard to argue with more CI, forged crank and rods in the same size package. In the meantime, I really like my 360, and my 4.0 for that matter.

AMC's are great, whatever size or flavor!

[PlasticBoob]

Just a joke

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

:D

[Wilk]

Originally posted by GlennTX:
If it doesn't burn diesel, it isn't worth a darn anyway. Just my opinion. Gas motors are a necessary evil in these things. A 4bt or 6bt swap would be the only thing worth spending any dough on.No way Glenn, the 6.5 GM is the KING, no other diesel deserves to be under the hood of a Jeep. :D :D (And way more torque than a 401)

[ December 14, 2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Wilk ]

[Mondo Bat.]

Umm, get a 258 and pass the popcorn.
I really like brewers yeast and parmasian cheese on mine.

I personally have held a record in a 258, at a speed of 54 mph, I carted a 6900lb twin axle trailer full of production equipment 200 miles over 4 mountain passes.

And I get 22 mpg.

[6foot4 again]

some caramel-coated popcorn, since it IS the holiday season, is in order here.

[1studiac]

Originally posted by Wilk:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GlennTX:
If it doesn't burn diesel, it isn't worth a darn anyway. Just my opinion. Gas motors are a necessary evil in these things. A 4bt or 6bt swap would be the only thing worth spending any dough on.No way Glenn, the 6.5 GM is the KING, no other diesel deserves to be under the hood of a Jeep. :D :D (And way more torque than a 401)</font>[/QUOTE]Your kidding right? 7.3 is the only way

[Elliott]

Comebacks are kind of addictive.
BTW, brewers yeast on popcorn... right on!

Ummm, well, oh yeah... 401. That's what is in the Great White that did 217mph, if you read about it.

What is so great about the 401 that makes it the only motor you should use in a Jeep?
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Nothing really. tongue.gif

But I thought I'd throw some things out there to demonstrate that it isn't just a load of crap to kick around your garage. That's all, really. There just aren't that many 217 mph loads of crap out there.
Peace, Love, Jack Daniels :D

[Rande]

I'd rather have an RC cola and a moon pie.