1979 Wagoneer for towing?

[JFlu]

I recently came into a 1979 Wagoneer that only has 28000 original miles. The previous owner has had several things replaced such as fuel pump, fuel filter, carb., full tune up with plugs and wires, etc.

I was hoping I could convert this into my primary tow vehicle for a 29' travel trailer that weighs roughly 4800lbs when loaded.

Does anyone have experiance towing like this or just have a useful opinion?

:confused:

[Tornado230]

Get a smaller trailer or a larger tow vehicle.
The Wagoneer will be woefully inadequate unless you are going to do flat, no head-wind towing.
I don't know of many 29 foot trailers that weigh less than 5,000 pounds.
I do not have actual experience with the combination you are considering, but through the years have talked with many people who have done it.
The older models have a bit more power and more favorable axle ratios to handle the load.
The majority of my towing at present is with a J-20 truck and a 20 foot long car hauler. Many times have had a GCW of 13,000 pounds. The truck handles the load well.
I have also done extensive trailering with a CJ5 and a 13 foot travel trailer, 2,400 pounds loaded for the road.
I'm not trying to say that it can't be done, but what I am trying to get across is the fact that extended travel with the combination you are considering may be less than enjoyable.

[JFlu]

Thanks for the info. Currently I pull it with an 08 Xterra using a 1000lb Equalizer 4 pt sway controller and an electronic braking system. It does just fine, but I don't want to use the Xterra in the mountains. I was hoping the Wagoneer could be used for those trips because of the V8.

It doesn't have a slide out so it comes in just under 5000lbs....it's pretty light for it's length plus we pack light. Theres just two of us.

I've read elsewhere that that year AMC 360 was a pain to keep cool while towing. I'm hoping someone has experiance upgrading the cooling system and if that upgrade solved the problem.

[Tornado230]

The ideal combination would be the 401 with the 3:54 ratio.
The wagon you are considering will probably have the 3:07 ratio.
To get the feel of things, hook everything up, get it out on the highway, and do some testing, as to acceleration to get on the interstate, the ability to maintain a steady speed, the ability to perform a lane change, and the possibility of passing another vehicle- going from 55 to 70 MPH.
Back in the days that RV's were in heavy use, one of the trailer magazines did a test of a 401 Matador equipped with the 3:54 rear. With a 5,000 pound trailer in tow, the combination could do a 0-60 run in 17 seconds. They could spin the wheels starting up.
During the late '60's, the ultimate combination was the Chrysler Town and Country Station Wagon with the 440.

[JFlu]

Thanks Tornado, sound advice......has anyone had any issues with cooling the CID 360 while under a load?

[jeepjerry]

A wagoneer will pull 5,000 lbs no doubt about it. The stock 360 may seem sluggish, but with the low mileage, that motor would be a great candidate to stick an rv/tow cam and a four barrel if it doesnt already have one.

I have a slightly modified 304 in my cherokee and i used it to tow my cj-5 on a car trailer about 600 miles round trip. Im guessing that trailer was around 4500 to 5000 lbs plus we had the back of my cherokee loaded up.

Oh yeah, and with the 3 core radiators they used in these, the 360 usually stays pretty well cool..

[TPICherokee]

During the late '60's, the ultimate combination was the Chrysler Town and Country Station Wagon with the 440.

Ah, back when large sedans and wagons were just cars on truck frames... the good ol' days.

[Serious Johnson]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Foureagles/DCP_0755.jpg
'Flu:

A Wagoneer is not the ideal tow rig for a load that size, but it can be OK. You're already familiar with short wheelbase from the XTerra, and apparently know the value of a weight-distributing hitch and trailer brakes. Those are the main things.

You'll find yourself cranking that hitch way down with a stock suspension -- heck, I've had the Jeep's back wheels come off the ground on a steep dip. Air bags might be helpful, but it’s entirety possible to rely too much on them and overload the stock rear axle. I like Rancho 9000 adjustable shocks for towing -- mainly because I can crank them back down when unladed for a decent ride.

Brakes on a Wagoneer are similar to but a few ticks weaker than those on your Nissan, so just be ready. There are some write-ups here about using ¾-ton GM calipers – haven’t tried it myself, and have just got by with high-temp ceramic pads & shoes that pretty much suck at everything but towing. Don’t bother with a rear disc conversion – won’t help a whit in this application – mass of the front rotors is the problem.

Probably the main thing leading to overheating on a good Wagoneer is the goofy old slushbox tranny feeding a lot of heat into the radiator (which is also a big reason they get such crappy fuel mileage). If you can plumb a great big auxiliary cooler upstream of the radiator, it'll probably be OK. Using a synthetic lube, like Redline D4, in the trans will help it live at high heat. Or you can do what I did and swap-in a manual transmission.

You'll want more power, but then doesn't everyone? That’s pretty well covered – fuel, cam, ignition, exhaust. These basics are necessary but not sufficient for decent power, and it really comes down to tuning. A well-sorted 360 can more-or-less reliably produce as much power as what comes standard in a new F350.

Heck, My Dear Ex had an ’06 F250 turbo diesel 4x4. My (much modified) Wag could tow he same load over the same country faster, much more comfortably, and with a touch better fuel mileage.

Bottom line: They could use a bit of work to make a good tow rig, but are pretty dang satisfying once doe-up right.

S.J.

[drduckman]

I asked my old man one time how come he always had Oldmobile station wagons when we were kids. He told me it was easy to pull the camper with the Rocket 455. Talk about crappy gas mileage

[Lindel]

Waggie will do just fine. Wheel base is just a bit short, but a little care and you'll be in high cotton.

[JFlu]

A wagoneer will pull 5,000 lbs no doubt about it. The stock 360 may seem sluggish, but with the low mileage, that motor would be a great candidate to stick an rv/tow cam and a four barrel if it doesnt already have one...

Can you give me more info on where to find such a cam or maybe even a part#?

[JFlu]

You'll find yourself cranking that hitch way down with a stock suspension -- heck, I've had the Jeep's back wheels come off the ground on a steep dip. Air bags might be helpful, but it’s entirety possible to rely too much on them and overload the stock rear axle. I like Rancho 9000 adjustable shocks for towing -- mainly because I can crank them back down when unladed for a decent ride.

Do you suggest I put a few inches of lift as well?

[crispyboy]

If your trailer weighs 4800 loaded then you will struggle in the mountains with the vehicle in stock form. Your trailer is very long for the short wheelbase unless you get a good anti-sway/weight distributing hitch. You may want to consider finding a used Hensley or Propride hitch off of ebay. They really work nice.
The tow capacity of a Wagoneer with a tow package is only 5000 lbs. Your trailer weighs 4800 loaded. Most advice in the RV world is too keep your tow weight at about 80 percent of the vehicles towing capacity. This doesn't mean it can't be done but it gives you a safety margin for stopping and gives you adequate power in the mountains/hills without overtaxing the engine and drivetrain.
Last fall I pulled my 22' trailer that weighs around 4000lbs loaded through the West Virginia mountains. Though the mountains are not as tall as out west the grades are very steep and the Wagoneer struggled. I was ok heat wise because I went to a flow kooler pump, high flow thermostat and BJ aluminum radiator. I don't recall any temps over 210 degrees. Engine cooling was outstanding!
In stock form the engine just struggled. Currently I am still working on putting the engine back together. I had to put in a new cam and bearings as the old cam bearings failed. I am also upgrading to a fuel injection system. I am putting an Engle cam k52/54 custom grind in the engine. I also would not put any lift on the Jeep. You can do everything you need to do with your weight distribution hitch but it may take some fiddling to get in dialed in correctly. I had no troubles stopping the trailer with the Wagoneer and I felt safe because of the good hitch setup I have.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/crispyboy_photos/airstream/IMG_1435.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/crispyboy_photos/web%20photos/Hensley%20Arrow/IMG_1495.jpg

[JFlu]

If your trailer weighs 4800 loaded then you will struggle in the mountains with the vehicle in stock form. Your trailer is very long for the short wheelbase unless you get a good anti-sway/weight distributing hitch. You may want to consider finding a used Hensley or Propride hitch off of ebay. They really work nice.

Thanks for the info....Currently I pull it with an 08 Xterra using a 1000lb Equalizer 4 pt sway controller and an electronic braking system. I'll transfer these over to the Waggie. Does the upgrade to fuel injection you are installing come in a kit with all the parts? If so, which kit are you using?

[Tornado230]

You hit the nail on the head with the statement of the performance.
To fully test the combination, I suggest you try I-77 North from Statesville, NC, to the intersection with I-81.
That section of highway, particularly the "uphill" section as you near the Virginia border, will probably show you whether the performance modifications will make the towing more enjoyable.
Another thing to consider is the engine oil temperature. Pulling a long grade in second gear at 50 MPH, if you can maintain that speed, will take the oil temperature into rather high numbers, which will result in shortened engine life.
I would suggest an external oil cooler.

[crispyboy]

You may try the Howell tbi system. You may also want to get the Holly throttle body upgrade instead of the stock GM throttle body. The Holly flows more cfm's. There are other bolt on tbi systems as well - do a search here on the board.

http://howellefi.com/customer/home.php?cat=280

[funhog]

Ah, back when large sedans and wagons were just cars on truck frames... the good ol' days.

Now the trucks (suv's) are on car "frames"

[Rocket Dog]

I pulled my boat, 22' center console with my tiered old jeep, but she did good. the weight I'm gussing was about 3000. all flat land, but I defenitly see were this old rig would have given up the ghost on any incline.

[chicklin]

Now the trucks (suv's) are on car "frames"
Many of them are, but at least the big three are still making "real" trucks, at this point. Just did some research yesterday and the GVWR for my J20 (i.e. 3/4 ton) is about the same as , if not lower than, my 2002 Silverado (1/2 ton). So, theoretically, they are still making tough trucks. They may not look like it, but there is a lot of engineering under that sheet metal.

[Serious Johnson]

Do you suggest I put a few inches of lift as well?

I wouldn't just for towing -- it'll be more stable the lower it is. I lifted mine a good bit because that was needed for my driveway (an hour or so in 4-Low in Summer without a trailer). Mine actually sags a lot more on the tall, soft off-road springs than it did stock. I might start looking for some little short tires just to make it tow better. Your W/D hitch should take care of things, but you want to be sure that you're not riding on the bump stops (effectively a solid rubber suspension) as can happen with large loads and tired springs. Your XTerra probably had a good bit more suspension travel than does a Wagoneer -- just another of those things to check.

Those twisty little roads in the Southern Appalachains (love 'em -- some of my favorite places) are a lot tougher than the big, sweeping stuff here in the Rockies. Fuel injection is a big help up here because of rather extreme altitude changes. Some popular aftermarket setups (Holley or Howell without the spark control option) are not much better than a good carburetor, and saddle you with aftermarket replacement parts. Many of us have had good results grafting-on GM throttle-body injection using junkyard parts and a custom chip, but that requires some learning & fiddling. There are some systems (Megasquirt is one) that offer full fuel & ignition control, but it's still not exactly plug & play. Your Motorcraft 2150 carburetor can do a pretty good job, even at somewhat enhanced power levels with proper jetting, as long as you don't try going from sea level above about 6,000'. Back when I ran a carb and "commuted" from sea level to 12,000', I'd carry a spare one with smaller jets and just swap 'em at 7,000'. That was quicker and less smelly than tearing into it to swap jets.

I'll let someone else make camshaft recommendations. Mine's a big, lumpy thing for reasons unrelated to towing.

S.J.

[JFlu]

I wouldn't just for towing -- it'll be more stable the lower it is. I lifted mine a good bit because that was needed for my driveway (an hour or so in 4-Low in Summer without a trailer). Mine actually sags a lot more on the tall, soft off-road springs than it did stock. I might start looking for some little short tires just to make it tow better. Your W/D hitch should take care of things, but you want to be sure that you're not riding on the bump stops (effectively a solid rubber suspension) as can happen with large loads and tired springs. Your XTerra probably had a good bit more suspension travel than does a Wagoneer -- just another of those things to check.

Those twisty little roads in the Southern Appalachains (love 'em -- some of my favorite places) are a lot tougher than the big, sweeping stuff here in the Rockies. Fuel injection is a big help up here because of rather extreme altitude changes. Some popular aftermarket setups (Holley or Howell without the spark control option) are not much better than a good carburetor, and saddle you with aftermarket replacement parts. Many of us have had good results grafting-on GM throttle-body injection using junkyard parts and a custom chip, but that requires some learning & fiddling. There are some systems (Megasquirt is one) that offer full fuel & ignition control, but it's still not exactly plug & play. Your Motorcraft 2150 carburetor can do a pretty good job, even at somewhat enhanced power levels with proper jetting, as long as you don't try going from sea level above about 6,000'. Back when I ran a carb and "commuted" from sea level to 12,000', I'd carry a spare one with smaller jets and just swap 'em at 7,000'. That was quicker and less smelly than tearing into it to swap jets.

I'll let someone else make camshaft recommendations. Mine's a big, lumpy thing for reasons unrelated to towing.

S.J.

Thanks SJ! You've given me a lot of food for thought. As I go into this I am trying to determine the best configuration (I am learning there are so many possibilities). So it's good to get advice from someone who has done similiar towing instead of speculators.

Thanks again!!

[JFlu]

Does anyone use dual transmission coolers when using their waggy as a primary tow vehicle? I've heard that helps things run cooler than using an oil cooler.

Also, which type of fan should I use, a clutch or electric? :confused:

[crispyboy]

Make sure your clutch fan is up to par with a good radiator. Make sure you have a fan shroud. If you opt for the aluminum crossflow radiator you have to do some trimming on the stock fan shroud for it to work properly. I believe the electric fans work a little better offroad when your going slow. Going down the highway a good clutch fan cools just fine. I run the std factory transmission cooler but have switched to Mobile 1 synthetic transmission fluid in the transmission, transfer case and power steering, Mobile 1 75w140 in the differentials and run Rotella 5w40 in the engine. The setup seems to work good.