Cummins to TF727 swap?

[nicinsand247]

Does anyone know if the 5.9Cummins was ever mated to the TF 727 trans. from the factory? If so, what was the application(models and years)

[mattmopar440]

Yes 80's dodges

[Mr Haney]

My 89 Dodge cummins was set up that way when it was new. It :( lasted 160,000 miles before it was rebuilt with a shift kit and heavy duty clutch packs. Had 238,000 on it when I sold it and still going strong. It would bark the tires when it shifted to second gear. Stupidest automotive move I ever made in my life was selling that truck.I just got tired of it after driving it 7 years.:confused:

[J10Mike]

Dodge did not offer a diesel in the early 80s. The Cummins powered trucks were first offered in 89. Dodge also offered a diesel for the 77 and 78 model year. It was a Nissan or Mitsubishi 6 cylinder non-turbo that was terribly under powered. Very few were sold. Ironically enough, they seem to have some value now. If you find one, it's a keeper.
Dodge CTD auto tranny usage:
89 thru 91.5 - TF727
91.5 thru 93 - 46RH (A518 overdrive)
94 thru 96 - 47RH (A618 overdrive)

Keep in mind that the CTD 727 was extra heavy duty and only bolts to the CTD or V10.

Hope this helps.

[710 Burner]

I think you have your 9 upside down.
I believe it was '85. not entirely sure about that, but I was working for a Dodge dealer in '87-'88. To my recollection, '88 was the first year for the intercooler.
Edit: It appears I am wrong all the way. According to Fritz http://dodgeram.org/support_pgs/diesel_ix.htm '89 was the first year for a Gen I Cummins.

[nicinsand247]

Thanks for all your guys help, Im planning a 5.9 cummins swap and im looking to do it with no adapter plates. I want to keep the 727 NP208 combo that my 87 J-20 came with.

[J10Mike]

Thanks for all your guys help, Im planning a 5.9 cummins swap and im looking to do it with no adapter plates. I want to keep the 727 NP208 combo that my 87 J-20 came with.
It will not bolt in using your present 727/208. The AMC 727 uses a different bolt pattern.
There are 4 different CTD tranny adapters made for both the 6bt and the 4bt...Dodge, Ford, Chevy, and SAE3. The easiest to bolt in would be the Dodge adapter, Dodge 727 or a518, and Dodge tranny tailshaft adapter. The AMC 208 will bolt to the Dodge. But, the clocking may be off a bit.
Another option would be to use the Chevy tranny adapter and Chevy 700R4 tranny. However, I'm not as familiar with that conversion.
Either way, it will not be an easy task. Do your homework and as much research as possible. You might start by reading up on http://www.4btswaps.com

[The PIG Smith]

Another option would be to use the Chevy tranny adapter and Chevy 700R4 tranny. However, I'm not as familiar with that conversion.
IMHO, the GM Adapter should be easier to source than the Dodge adapters.
The GM adapters seems to be more plentiful as folks dismantle "Chip Wagon" for the Cummins 4BT.
They are not particularly desirable has these adapters have a 7(?) degree tilt to the drivers side.
The flexplate is drilled to mate to a torque converter of a TH475's.
It can be redrilled to mate to a 700R4, 4L60 or 4L80.
I believe from reading on the 4BTSwaps forum, that most folks that go the GM route, use an aftermarket adapter.
There are several folks building these.

One 4BTSwaps member that is a machinist by trade, took the Cummins to GM adapter with the 7 degree tilt, measured it on a CNC Quality Control table (machine with a tip that measures every surface) and created a CNC program.
Then, he edited the program to remove the tilt.
He was selling these homemade adapters on the 4BTSwaps forum for an attractive price.

Bryan Smith's Bottom Line: Cheaper? Yes. More work/hassle? Can be, so Yes.

Either way, it will not be an easy task. Do your homework and as much research as possible. You might start by reading up on http://www.4btswaps.com
X2!
Mike could not have said this any better!
I have been studying this type of swap for years.
There are MANY issues to consider and the technical problems are huge.
But, it is very doable project and there have been those that have successfully performed this swap.

With no disrespect to this forum and its members, www.4BTSwaps.com (http://www.4BTSwaps.com) is THE place to gather this information on this type of project.

[dusty]

It will not bolt in using your present 727/208. The AMC 727 uses a different bolt pattern.
There are 4 different CTD tranny adapters made for both the 6bt and the 4bt...Dodge, Ford, Chevy, and SAE3. The easiest to bolt in would be the Dodge adapter, Dodge 727 or a518, and Dodge tranny tailshaft adapter. The AMC 208 will bolt to the Dodge. But, the clocking may be off a bit.
Another option would be to use the Chevy tranny adapter and Chevy 700R4 tranny. However, I'm not as familiar with that conversion.
Either way, it will not be an easy task. Do your homework and as much research as possible. You might start by reading up on http://www.4btswaps.com


There are two versions of the dodge adapter. 1989-93 hich will bolt to a 89-91 diesel 727 or a diesel 91-93 a518 and then there are the 94-2007 versions that will bolt to the diesel versions of the 47rh, 47re, 48re.

[J10Mike]

There are two versions of the dodge adapter. 1989-93 hich will bolt to a 89-91 diesel 727 or a diesel 91-93 a518 and then there are the 94-2007 versions that will bolt to the diesel versions of the 47rh, 47re, 48re.
That's correct. However, I didn't want to add to the confusion due to his original question being in regards to the 727.

[J10Mike]

IMHO, the GM Adapter should be easier to source than the Dodge adapters.
The GM adapters seems to be more plentiful as folks dismantle "Chip Wagon" for the Cummins 4BT.
I wouldn't say GM adapters are easier to source. While they may be more plentiful, they are also much more expensive selling for $500 to $600 or more on Ebay. And, those are used parts.
While being less plentiful, the Dodge adapters are available and can be had for $75 to $150 including the flexplate and bolts. Plus...There is no tilt to the Dodge adapter.

[nicinsand247]

I was thinking of bolting the 6bt to the dodge bellhoused TF727 and using the tail shaft out of the Jeep J20 TF 727 to bolt to my J20's original NP208? You dont think thats possible?

[J10Mike]

I was thinking of bolting the 6bt to the dodge bellhoused TF727 and using the tail shaft out of the Jeep J20 TF 727 to bolt to my J20's original NP208? You dont think thats possible?
It could be very possible. And, since you would not be using the Dodge shift lever, you might be able to use the Dodge tailshaft adapter as well. They both have the same round 6 bolt pattern for the 208.
I'm just unaware of anybody here doing that specific drivetrain conversion.
My Cummins conversion will be using the 4bt and should bolt into my 77 Ramcharger using doner parts off a 91 Dodge CTD.

[The PIG Smith]

I wouldn't say GM adapters are easier to source. While they may be more plentiful, they are also much more expensive selling for $500 to $600 or more on Ebay. And, those are used parts.
Okay Mister Smartypants!
Just when I think I know what is going on, am comfortable with myself and what I consider to be fact...
...you come in and knock my off my chair! <HAHAHA>
Yes, I stand corrected...I believe your facts are more accurate.
I am living in the past.

In the distant past, folks were just about giving away the GM adapter because they did not want the tilt.
After some checking, this no longer the case.
As the supply of 4BT are starting to dry up, the prices for these items are going up...way up!

I remember about 10 years ago, when my brother and I were looking at Frito Lay G30 vans repowered by Cummins 4BT,
they were a dime a dozen.
It was easy to pickup a running "Chip Wagon" for a few hundred dollars.
It was very common to buy one of these vans, get a good running 4BT and sell the aluminum body to a recycler and actually make $$$.
How kewl was that...get a good running 4BT and walk with cash in your pocket?
Those days are long gone.
While being less plentiful, the Dodge adapters are available and can be had for $75 to $150 including the flexplate and bolts. Plus...There is no tilt to the Dodge adapter.
I need to start watching for these a little closer than I have been.

[J10Mike]

Okay Mister Smartypants!
Just when I think I know what is going on, am comfortable with myself and what I consider to be fact...
...you come in and knock my off my chair! <HAHAHA>
Yes, I stand corrected...I believe your facts are more accurate.
I am living in the past.

In the distant past, folks were just about giving away the GM adapter because they did not want the tilt.
After some checking, this no longer the case.
As the supply of 4BT are starting to dry up, the prices for these items are going up...way up!

I remember about 10 years ago, when my brother and I were looking at Frito Lay G30 vans repowered by Cummins 4BT,
they were a dime a dozen.
It was easy to pickup a running "Chip Wagon" for a few hundred dollars.
It was very common to buy one of these vans, get a good running 4BT and sell the aluminum body to a recycler and actually make $$$.
How kewl was that...get a good running 4BT and walk with cash in your pocket?
Those days are long gone.

I need to start watching for these a little closer than I have been.
LOL...I'm sorry Bryan. I didn't mean to come off as a know it all or mr. smartypants. It's just that I have done so much research into my upcoming CTD conversion, my head was spinning and it just came out.
I don't know everything about CTD conversions. But, I do know of everything it will take to get a CTD installed in my RC. Lots of little things that seem to be nickle and diming me to death. And the worse part???...I still haven't found the right 4bt. Because of their demand, they are way overpriced...Going for $2500 or more. That's just freaking craziness considering you can get a freshly Cummins rebuilt long block for around $3500.
I'll eventually find a good running low mileage 4bt. But, I can guarantee you that I won't pay over a grand for it. I just missed buying one in my area or $1000 by 5 minutes. It wasn't for sale on Craigslist for more than 15 minutes...Oh well.

[The PIG Smith]

LOL...I'm sorry Bryan. I didn't mean to come off as a know it all or mr. smartypants.
Not a prob...I was joke'n with ya...that was what the HAHAHa was for.

And the worse part???...I still haven't found the right 4bt. Because of their demand, they are way overpriced...Going for $2500 or more. That's just freaking craziness considering you can get a freshly Cummins rebuilt long block for around $3500.
I'll eventually find a good running low mileage 4bt. But, I can guarantee you that I won't pay over a grand for it. I just missed buying one in my area or $1000 by 5 minutes. It wasn't for sale on Craigslist for more than 15 minutes...Oh well.
I hear ya!
I know prices for 4BT are going though the roof.
That is why Pete is going with an Isuzu Diesel in his project.
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=99234

My brother's '97 Ford F-150 that powered by a 4BT has starting to show its age.
The truck is starting to have all sorts of little issues, not related to the 4BT or the swap..related to a 10 year old Ford truck.
His Cummins 4BT is worth more than the truck.
So, he keeps fixing the little stuff...nickel and diming him.
The 4BT just keep increasing in value and the truck, way over 200K miles, with a heavy 4BT underhood...keep decreasing in value.
I will venture a guess...that one day...he will thrown in the towel, pull the 4BT, crush the body, find a newer doner truck and start over again.
My point: The value of a Cummins 4BT are increasing.

[rebeljeep]

"I was thinking of bolting the 6bt to the dodge bellhoused TF727 and using the tail shaft out of the Jeep J20 TF 727 to bolt to my J20's original NP208? You dont think thats possible?"

-I think that is very possible, I believe people swap 2wd dodge tailshafts and housing on to 4wd AMC cases, so I would think the opposite would work with cummins case and AMC tailshaft and housing. I think it would be the cleanest install in regard to the use of adaptors and such.

If a rebuild is in order for the cummins 727, they have heavier duty components available now (5 gear steel front planet, 6 gear rear planet etc.)

[Eugene 1]

I would think that a Cummins engine with 400ftlbs of torque or better would be a little hard on a 208 ??

[nicinsand247]

I think that dodge put the TF727/208 combo behind the 5.9cummins, I dont recall hearing anything too problematic with them, I suppose if the 208 grenades, I could always switch to a divorced 205 or something.

[dusty]

I think that dodge put the TF727/208 combo behind the 5.9cummins, I dont recall hearing anything too problematic with them, I suppose if the 208 grenades, I could always switch to a divorced 205 or something.

they did not offer that combo.
they did offer a 727/205 89-91 rhdrive and then later the 518/205 91-93 rhdrive then in 1994-97 the 47rh/241 lhdrive but thats it for hydraulic trannies without electronics

[nicinsand247]

Was the TF 727/NP205 a passenger or drivers side drop differiential?

[Eugene 1]

passenger 89-93 I believe

Edit: see Dusty's post,
I would try to find a wrecked 4x4 cummins to do the swap, that way you would not have to track down all the pieces like intercooler,bracket, hoses etc. that can Nickel and Dime you to death !

[83LaredoWT]

I am doing a similar swap into a '83 Cherokee. I will be using a A518 out of a '92 W250 behind my 4BT.

My plan was to use the existing transfer case(NP229 select track that noone seems to like :( ) as the bolt pattern does line up. However, it does need to be shimmed out because the trans tailshaft is not quite deep enough. I don't know if the 208 shares this problem.

My other thought was to use either a 231 or 241 out of a 1994 up Dodge. This should bolt right up to the trans, have the correct drivers side drop, and eliminate the older transfer case issues.

I think the combo should work out well with my 3.31 gears and 31" tires. If I can just get the thing done that is.