What Oil Should I Be Using?

[rutang]

I just bought my 86 Grand Wagoneer and was going to start changing fluids and what not and I was just curious what oil should I be using? Also any preferences on brand? I want to keep this thing in pristine condition, so any tips on any maintenance would be appreciated. Thanks.
Rusty

[Chevelleguy]

Diesel oil with high zinc and phosphate content. Flat tappet cams don't like modern day oils. Rotella, Delo, John Deere markets a good oil, We use Fina 15/40 here at work. I use that and Rotella T 30w & 15/40.

If you don't have anything to do this week, do an internet search on oil and old engines. You will find more info than you ever wanted to know.

[PlasticBoob]

I don't mean to disagree with Chevelleguy because I know he knows his s..tuff. But I'd say if you have a rebuilt or low-mileage engine, go with a synthetic and add your own ZDDP.

Here is some info on diesel oils in gas engines:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief6%20-%20Diesel%20Oil%20Use%20in%20Classic%20and%20High-Performance%20Gasoline%20Engines.pdf


I feel safer using Mobil 1 and the Jeep-recommended viscosity of 10w-30, while adding my own ZDDP supplement. Idle oil pressure never goes below 20psi. :)

[Chevelleguy]

That will work too.

[Serious Johnson]

I'll have to look into those ZDDP additives. I've been running Mobil-1 in everything that doesn't leak or smoke (0W20 or 5W20, depending on availability, in my 360) for 25 years with no trouble. Out of curiosity and an over-abundance of parts, I've torn apart one of my flat-tappet motors (a Mazda) after 250,000 miles and it was still dang-near perfect, despite having run the bejeezus outta it for fifteen years.

For things other than the motor -- axles, trannies, U-joints, wheel bearings, what have you, I like the Redline range of synthetics. For the most part, good full synthetic lubes with their strong, long-chain molecules will allow you to get away with lighter viscosity than if you'd used organic oils. This has benefits in fuel efficiency, heat generation & tolerance, cold start lubrication and extended change interval. $5/qt engine oil changed every 5,000 miles costs about the same as $2.50/qt each 3,000 miles once you figure in cost of a good filter. I've pulled apart many axles that had taken on water. Those with mineral oil looked to be filled with latte foam, while those containing synthetic lube had water in there that never mixed with the oil. Maybe that's good and maybe it's not. It could be that water-contaminated oil still lubes better than sometimes pure oil and sometimes only water. The synthetic-lubed boxes just seem to hold up better in my experience. Engines that run hot can cook mineral oil in fairly short order. Using a synthetic expands the heat tolerance range of the oil beyond what the metal can handle.

S.J.

[jeepjerry]

I'll have to look into those ZDDP additives. I've been running Mobil-1 in everything that doesn't leak or smoke (0W20 or 5W20, depending on availability, in my 360) for 25 years with no trouble. Out of curiosity and an over-abundance of parts, I've torn apart one of my flat-tappet motors (a Mazda) after 250,000 miles and it was still dang-near perfect, despite having run the bejeezus outta it for fifteen years.



S.J.

5w20 in your 360???? what did you build it to some tight tolerances?

As for running deisel oils, the zinc levels are being taken out since it eats away at the new particulate filters being used in deisels now days. So you have to be careful and make sure the diesel oil you use has the additives in it that you want.

If you want to spend the money, joe gibbs makes an oil called hot rod oil which is made for older engines. it has everything in it to protect your older engine.

[Serious Johnson]

5w20 in your 360???? what did you build it to some tight tolerances?...

I set main & rod bearings at the tight end of factory spec, and piston-bore at the loose end, with very light ring tension. I didn't sort through rods to achieve tight side clearance, and am likely losing some pressure there with light oil. Point was to run the motor on light synthetic lube and take advantage of its inherent strong molecular bond to keep the crank off the bearings and provide ring seal. If you look at clearance specs on more modern motors you'll see something similar.

Good point about the additive package in current diesel lubes. I still have a bit to learn on that stuff.

S.J.

[jeepjerry]

Ahh, I see. You can also get better fuel mileage on lighter oil due to the lack of resistance..:thumbsup:

[danthegeek]

Valvoline VR1 racing oil is good too. Thats what i run in my nova with a pretty aggressive flat tappet cam and i have had no issues. It is pretty inexpensive too and you can pick it up at most of the Auto parts stores. Rotella T works well as long as you are running the stock cam and valve springs. It was reformulated a few years ago and doesent have as much zinc as it used to.

-Dan

[tkiller13]

Not to hijack but, post up if you run 1 quart or more of the bulltear oil? This last time I changed the oil in all my fsj's I bought a case of the bulltear oil. I dumped 1 quart in each of them. Then I used just regular 10w-30

[twmattox]

According to STP, one can of their blue stuff will increase ZDDP levels back to pre-re-formulated oil standards. Beware...it also increases viscosity...

[Herk]

If the base oil is worth a Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley, anti-wear contaminants won't matter (they only apply metal-to-metal where the base oil failed). Try an ACEA A1/A5 rated oil such as Mobil 1 10w30 Extended Performance. Not exactly cheap, but more than adequate.

Pull a sample after the first 1500 miles (contamination check) and every 3000 miles thereafter. I would suspect that you will be able to reach 10,000 miles between drain intervals with a quality oil in a healthy carbureted engine. If the Fe (Iron) ppm count in your oil analysis remains low you can rest assured your cam is not wearing. If you arbitrarily dump your oil based on a mileage interval with no analysis, you will be unable to track normal/abnormal wear or contamination (fuel or dirt) patterns in your engine and will waste money throwing away perfectly good oil.

I run the above referenced oil in my 05 Wrangler 4.0L and repeated analysis shows almost NO Fe content, or other metallics for that matter. I've become a fan of good oil and sample analysis so I figured I'd add my slant.

The Amsoil mafia will surely chime in shortly with lubricant testimonials as well as chirping up their analsys lab. I won't speak evil of their product, I'll just never place it inside any of my equipment.

[vintagetrks]

Let me ask this guys my 76 waggy shows 95,000 on the odometer changed the oil when I got it with Valvoline VR1 20/50 but wanted to go with mobile 1 synthetic but have always heard that it's not a good idea to start running synthetic oil in an old engine. Is there any truth to this?

[fulsizjeep]

Not to hijack but, post up if you run 1 quart or more of the bulltear oil? This last time I changed the oil in all my fsj's I bought a case of the bulltear oil. I dumped 1 quart in each of them. Then I used just regular 10w-30Running BullTear brand in 2 401s at the moment. Nothing to report yet. Running Citgo JT8 15-40 in another and Rotella 15-40 in another. The Citgo product appears to do about the same as the Rotella on oil pressure and condition at 3000 mile changes.


Let me ask this guys my 76 waggy shows 95,000 on the odometer changed the oil when I got it with Valvoline VR1 20/50 but wanted to go with mobile 1 synthetic but have always heard that it's not a good idea to start running synthetic oil in an old engine. Is there any truth to this?The first thing you might notice is new leaks with synthetic in an older engine.

[Herk]

Let me ask this guys my 76 waggy shows 95,000 on the odometer changed the oil when I got it with Valvoline VR1 20/50 but wanted to go with mobile 1 synthetic but have always heard that it's not a good idea to start running synthetic oil in an old engine. Is there any truth to this?

No, none. Unless you believe all that grease and dirt on the outside of your engine keeps it from leaking. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

[jeepdreamer]

I would swear by my mobile1! Without all the super knowledge (elsewhere in this post) or technical jargon, all i can say is it WAY better than 'Dino-oil". Everything i've run it in has lasted longer, run better, and given me less headaches. That having been said, listen to the guys earlier in the post. They sound like they have done thier homework... alot!:eek:
Side note* surprised nobody has mentioned other synthetics like royal purple?

[jeepdreamer]

Man, I forgot the biggest and bestest reason for using synthetic products! By NOT buying "dino-oil" you get the outstanding enjoyment of shaking your middle finger at OPEC!!!!:thumbsup:

[vintagetrks]

I would swear by my mobile1! Without all the super knowledge (elsewhere in this post) or technical jargon, all i can say is it WAY better than 'Dino-oil". Everything i've run it in has lasted longer, run better, and given me less headaches. That having been said, listen to the guys earlier in the post. They sound like they have done thier homework... alot!:eek:
Side note* surprised nobody has mentioned other synthetics like royal purple? Never tried royal purple is that stuff any good? I like Moble 1 and use it in my pick up and change the oil every 5k and the oil always looks new when I drain it. So I think I'm gonna go synthetic in the old waggy. Thanks For the advice and help All you guys.

[vintagetrks]

Running BullTear brand in 2 401s at the moment. Nothing to report yet. Running Citgo JT8 15-40 in another and Rotella 15-40 in another. The Citgo product appears to do about the same as the Rotella on oil pressure and condition at 3000 mile changes.


The first thing you might notice is new leaks with synthetic in an older engine.

Why would I develope new leaks with synthetic oil? Something to do with seals? I don't get it? Please explain.

[Herk]

Any name brand synthetic is compliant with the engineering standards relevant to your engines seals now, and when they were designed. If your 30+ year old engine leaks, don't blame it on the oil. your seals are worn out, contaminated, or both. No surprise.

Is your goal an oil that won't leak because "it don't flow so good"? If you leak more with a synthetic it's because the synthetic is "oilier" than the dinosaur oil and finds its way into more places. Do you want oil to find it's way into places inside your engine? Like between close fitting metal parts?!?

This is right up there with "old engines NEED thicker oil". Your owners manual called for 10w30 when your rig wan new. The worst oil now is better then the best oil then...

[vintagetrks]

Any name brand synthetic is compliant with the engineering standards relevant to your engines seals now, and when they were designed. If your 30+ year old engine leaks, don't blame it on the oil. your seals are worn out, contaminated, or both. No surprise.

Is your goal an oil that won't leak because "it don't flow so good"? If you leak more with a synthetic it's because the synthetic is "oilier" than the dinosaur oil and finds its way into more places. Do you want oil to find it's way into places inside your engine? Like between close fitting metal parts?!?

This is right up there with "old engines NEED thicker oil". Your owners manual called for 10w30 when your rig wan new. The worst oil now is better then the best oil then...

I get what your saying. I suppose if I get a little leaky it will help me find the seals that need replaced. LOL I plan on rebuilding the engine anyway so all the seals and gaskets will get replaced and she'll be tight again.

[brh8]

DINO BABY--Save your money... just change your oil as required.. OR spend your money on mobile one at $6.00 a quart. plus buy our 16.99 mobile one oil filter. :D If you go synthetic, mobile one runs twice a year a special, at autozone, and advance here in columbus OH. buy 5 quarts and mobile one filter for 29.99// LOAD UP SON... MY two cents, if you change your oil as required, your motor will last a long time. JUST MY OPINION. and we all have them...

P.S> Once you run synthetic, you must run synthetic,,, B.S.that line came from a oil rep ? or the sales counter at Auto Zone? Let's put it this way, who coined that phrase? I sure like to know.....Oh, i am not all against the synthetics.. just googled the dino versus synthetics, and all the sights were sponsored by a synthetic brand. One said it all, use dino, if it is SJ approved...

[rutang]

I appreciate all the responses. I did forget to mention that my rig does leak some oil so I am curious if that changes anything? I probably shouldn't buy the most expensive stuff if its leaking out right? Also what weight of oil should I go with here in Oregon? I am still a little unsure what the best option is... everyone seems to vary a little. Thanks.

[jackz4000]

My current GW gets regular 10-30 and I have no problems. I've considered additives but??? It has 189,000 miles and it had a complete rebuild 33,000 miles ago. Still can't find a leak anywhere.

With older engines I'd usually use 10-40 and add STP. Makes a good undercoating too.

[jackz4000]

Rutang, You should fix the leaks. No reason to use too pricey oil when you are leaking that much since you are undercoating the undercarriage.

[PlasticBoob]

My current GW gets regular 10-30 and I have no problems. I've considered additives but???
The ZDDP I was talking about shouldn't really be considered an "additive" - it's simply replacing something that has been in oil for years. When the majority of engines switched over to roller lifters, lots of ZDDP was no longer needed and was taken out. This at the very least reduces the life of flat-tappet camshafts like ours.

I should note that not even Mobil-1 has satisfactory levels of ZDDP for our engines. I'll post the data when I find it.

Bulltear oil is just fine, except that it's too thick for my liking.

[tkiller13]

I should note that [U]not even Mobil-1 has satisfactory levels of ZDDP[/U for our engines. I'll post the data when I find it.

Bulltear oil is just fine, except that it's too thick for my liking.

That's one reason I only use 1 quart then the rest 10/30.

Im told from the bulltear man himself " 1 quart has all the zddp our engines require."

[PlasticBoob]

Let me ask this guys my 76 waggy shows 95,000 on the odometer changed the oil when I got it with Valvoline VR1 20/50 but wanted to go with mobile 1 synthetic but have always heard that it's not a good idea to start running synthetic oil in an old engine. Is there any truth to this?

Not really...I've switched many vehicles over to Mobil-1 synthetic at 150,000 (Honda Civic), 110,000 (Ford Explorer) and 100,000 (Ford Expedition) miles. None leaked any worse than before.

HOWEVER!! Your engine may start burning more oil as the synthetic will find its way past worn valve stem seals, rings and such - the Honda started burning more oil but not enough to be a problem. It now has 230,000 miles with ZERO engine noise - meaning no valve chatter, and I suspect I don't even need to adjust the valves, even though Honda recommends it every 30,000 miles. :eek: :thumbsup:

[PlasticBoob]

That's one reason I only use 1 quart then the rest 10/30.

Im told from the bulltear man himself " 1 quart has all the zddp our engines require."

That's great news, I have 6 quarts of Bulltear oil sitting in the garage. :thumbsup:

[vintagetrks]

What the heck is zddp and why do I need to add it to my oil if I go to mobile 1 synthetic?

[PlasticBoob]

What the heck is zddp and why do I need to add it to my oil if I go to mobile 1 synthetic?
ZDDP creates a thin layer of sacrificial metal between the cam and lifter. I will post sources later, but I believe the recommended amount for our engines is 1400ppm; Mobil-1 10w-30 has only 900ppm or so.

[holley68]

I was wondering if i did ok. I put Valvoline VR1 20w-50 in my motor, first oil change just put 1500ish miles on the motor since rebuild. Use a purelator filter too.

[vintagetrks]

I was wondering if i did ok. I put Valvoline VR1 20w-50 in my motor, first oil change just put 1500ish miles on the motor since rebuild. Use a purelator filter too. Thats what I put in mine too after I bought it a month ago. I think it's good oil for an older engine, but I could be wrong all these guys are talking about zddp and stuff. I want to start using Moble1 but don't want to add a bunch of junk to my oil so I'm wondering what to do too.

[Serious Johnson]

One thing that first made folks aware of potential leaks after switching to synthetic lube was a high natural rubber content in the seals of older vehicles. Some early synthetics lacked sufficient ability to swell the seal rubber. The only apparent case of this I've encountered was back in the eighties on a '69 Ford -- 60,000 miles and the motor never apart. The previously dry rear main leaked immediately and prodigously on Molil-1. Switching back to mineral oil did not cure it completely, but a new seal has let it run synthetic ever since.

I understand that the manufacturers of synthetic lube long ago recognized and addressed the issue with seal-swelling addative. My neighbor's 65-year-old Oliver crawler tractor and his flathed V-8 Ford pickup both run synthetic lube successfully.

My choice of synthetic engine lube has little to do with extended change interval, though that does defray the higher initial cost. I use it primarily for superior cold start flow (which matters a lot at twenty below, but is always a benefit), higher heat tolerance (more an issue with my highly-stressed 4-bangers than the lumbering 360), and the ability to use a lighter viscosity for efficiency.

S.J.