360 rebuild & edelbrock questions

[billyrb]

I have decided to rebuild my wag motor (post 80 with EGR), and was reviewing the Edelbrock system. First off, let me say that the motor will be a standard rebuild, nothing fancy, I will probably run a max. tire size of 33" in about a year or so, and I will use the wag mainly for daily driving and the occassional offroading trip, and no towing. I found that the correct combination (via edelbrock) is as follows:
Carb w/ elec. choke & EGR: #1400
Intake w/ EGR: #3731
Performer Cam & Lifters: #2132
Valve Springs (non-rotator): #5832
Valve Springs (rotator): #5932
Timing Chain: #7817

Now come the questions:
1. What is the difference in non-rotator & rotator valve springs?
2. What does everyone think of the cam? Good, bad, too mild, etc?
3. Who has done this mod, and which parts did you use (post 1980 only)?
4. Who has the best prices?
5. What should I do to the heads?
6. Are there any major parts that I should replace, ie: oil pump, etc?
7. Who wants to help?
8. What are the downsides to the edelbrock kit?
9. Wouldn't I get better performance from the carb, intake, cam, and timing chain if I used all of Edelbrock's stuff, as they were designed specifically to be used together?

thanks for the input guys!
~ryan

[Va-Rob]

I can't answer all these questions but I would definatly go with all new oil pump, water pump, fuel pump, belts hoses, pcv valve, fuel filter, air filter. If you have the cash replace the CTO valve's (I think you only have one) vacuum lines and plug wires, cap and roter.

Rob

[billyrb]

CTO valves?

[Va-Rob]

CTO valve also calles spark controll valve usually on top of the thermostat houseing controlls the vacuum to the egr and distributer advance.

[rhamby]

I'll give you my opinion on the parts I replaced. I did a very similar rebuild on mine except that I'm .30 over. I used over the counter pistons, rings, and crank (with Clevites) from Advanced for the bottom end, and used the Edelbrock cam, carb, intake (SP2P), & timing kit. I think for this type of stock setup, the cam was a great choice. My only complaint is really drops off at high RPM's, but that's its design. Really good torque on the low end. The carb (1406) is simple and has worked great.
On the other stuff you shoudl do/not do, I think that depends entirely on wear. The timing cover is really important - check the clearances on it carefully. There are a lot of ways to look at what to do with the heads, but for my $ and time in having them off anyway, I'd have them cleaned, beaded, surfaced, guides, valves and seals put in in a heartbeat (plus a nice coat of Jeep paint :D ). Check the fulcrums for wear, too. A kit is $18/cyl. Definitely get an oil pump rebuild kit & water pump - they're dirt cheap. I HATE spending money on nice new stuff and having something in there I know might need replacing in a couple of years or so.
Are you going to to anything to the bottom of the engine?

[derf]

Get the 1406 carb instead of the 1400. The 1400 has a GM specific EGR setup that you don't need. The AMC setup just runs a valve from one of the existing vaccuum ports on the 1406.

[billyrb]

I live in a county that has major emissions requirements, and being that mine is an 84', I was told by several people to get the EGR #1400 carb....why would I use the #1406 instead? Can anyone confirm passing emissions testing with that carb? What are the downsides to using the #1400?
~ryan

[Sgt. Dave]

Is the emissions test visual or a sniffer? If it's a sniffer, why not think fuel injection. Even if it's a visual, usually what's checked is thermostatic air cleaner, EGR, AIR pump, Cat converter, all vac lines in place, diverter valves, charcoal cannister, etc. Don't see too many inspectors pulling off air breathers and checking carb ( or throttle body :D ) numbers. The main thing is don't draw attention to your rig. If it looks stock and sounds stock, the presumption is that it's stock. A throttle body injection system and an oxygen sensor on a truck that didn't come with it draws less attention than a bunch of chrome and braided line, open air cleaner, etc in the engine compartment

[derf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billyrb:
I live in a county that has major emissions requirements, and being that mine is an 84', I was told by several people to get the EGR #1400 carb....why would I use the #1406 instead? Can anyone confirm passing emissions testing with that carb? What are the downsides to using the #1400?
~ryan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, ask your local inspector about it before you go in. He may be able to tell you everything you need to know.

As far as the 1400 being an "EGR Carb", it only has provisions for the Chevy style EGR setup and is only "legal" as a replacement on Chevy engines. If you put it on a non Chevy, it does not qualify as a replacement part, nor does any CARB EO number apply. This is because non Chevy engines do not use the same EGR setup as any other vehicle. The Chevy setup directs the exhaust gas through the carb from a port next to the carb on the intake manifold.

AMC engines have an exhaust crossover passage through the intake manifold. Right next to that passage is one of the intake runners in the manifold. They both have holes right next to each other and a machined area where you bolt on the EGR valve. When the valve opens, exhaust gas comes out of the passage, through the valve and into the intake runner. This valve is operated off a vaccum hose from the carbureator. So long as that hose is connected, your EGR will work as intended.

Here in Texas, they don't care what kind of fuel system you set up on your engine. If all of your smog equipment is hooked up and you pass the sniffer test you're good. So if I hook up a 1406 carb on the 3731 manifold and connect the EGR valve to a vaccum port on the carb, I will pass in Texas (assuming I pass the sniffer test...).

Kalifornia is different. You must have either original equipment, something that qualifies as an OEM replacement, or something that has been tested and certified with an "EO number" from CARB (California Air Resources Bord, their "EPA"). If I took my wagon with the 1406 carb, 3731 manifold and properly connected EGR valve, I would not pass since neither the carb nor the manifold qualify as stock replacement or have EO numbers. If I passed the sniffer test, I could go to a special smog referee and get him to pass me but it's a big hassle.

I don't know how things work in GA. They may be like Texas, they may be like Kalifornia. They may be somewhere in between. Call the local inspection station and ask.

But no matter what you do, the 1400 carb will have an EGR system that you won't use since your's is an AMC engine. Don't waste the money. If GA cares about whether the carb is "smog legal" it won't be for your engine. If they don't care, you can put anything on.

[RustyJeep]

Man am i glad I don't have to get emissions checked. TBI, here I come!

[derf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RustyJeep:
Man am i glad I don't have to get emissions checked. TBI, here I come!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I like Texas better than I did Kalifornia. They don't care what's on top of the engine. They only care what comes out, which is the whole point of emissions testing in the first place. Kalifornia is actually shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing upgrades that improve emissions just because the manufacturer didn't go through the red tape.

[Michael]

Agreed with Derf...I used the 1406 carb.. The AMC does not need the egr port. It is set up for GM's mostly. Ours runs off the cto vaccum meaning when the temperature hits a certain temp the egr will open close and so on. I do not have any problems with emissions here. As a matter of fact I had it tested once I put it on and straight out of the box I will pass.. So if GA does not care what you have on it go with the 1406 carb.

[jeepbob]

Rhamby,
The reason your motor falls off at higher rpm is that the ports on the SP2P intake are too small to allow the motor to breath. It is really a 304 intake and is marginal there.

[Marvin Gates]

In Kalifornia they are more worried about who has paid who off, more than what comes out the exhaust pipe. I lived there to many years and was completely fed up with their crap. Now, here in the sticks you can run anything you want to build, and you just have to love it. No more smog B.S. M.G.

[rhamby]

Thanks JB !

[2j20's]

L was just fixing to say the same thing about that SP2P HAD one and sold it.

[rhamby]

yep - it was a free way to get the 2150 to go away. I kinda like it cuz the torque is nice, but I always thought the cam was more to blame, at least with doc. that came with it. Now I have a quest...

[billyrb]

Rhamby, you still need beige interior parts? I know of a parts wagon in Macon Georgia for $500 more or less....I need a part or two (windshield, etc).....but the interior is in great shape, and all beige. The rear seat is the best I have seen! Maybe we go in together...

~ryan

[rhamby]

I only need the front pieces cuz I'm running the J. What the shape of the front seats and door panels?

[billyrb]

Front seats were ok, with the usual cracks...can't remember much beyond that....the door panels to my recollection were good....I have pics somewhere around here....gotta find em'

~ryan

[jeepguzzi]

I have the 1406 carb, performer intake, cam, and timing set from edelbrock. All my emissions stuff is intact, with the exception of the carb bowl to charcoal canister vac line. The 1406 has no provision for that. Here in Illinois, we only need to pass the sniffer, and for my 1979, only at idle. I passed emissions by rejetting the carb to the lean side (ran like crap). But, it worked. Also, I have Doug Thorley headers and a new Random Technologies high flow cat. The MSD ignition may help, as well. :D :D

I bought my Edelbrock stuff from Summit Racing.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: jeepguzzi ]</p>

[Dive 30]

I have the Edelbrock Performer Package also.

Valve Springs: Non-rotators (rotators were like '76 and earlier 360s) This swap is not as scary as it sounds, although if you have the extra $200 I would go ahead and add the roller-rocker set-up while you are at it. JMHO

Cam: I LIKE It! It is a little mild for some guys, but for a Medium Salsa kind of guy like me who drives his G-wag back and forth to work everyday, it is way better than stock, not too rough running, and easy to install. (there is nothing better than the look on their faces when you blow their doors off)

Carb: 1406= electric choke included, economy minded. 1405= you have to get the electric choke kit, performance minded.

Timing Kit: Make sure you get the double roller timing set. I went with Edelbrock, but Comp Cams and Summit offer sets.

I bought all my stuff from Summit. They are not the least expensive, but they are average on everything, and you get good reliable service.

Make sure you get the intake manifold gasket, it doesn't come in a regular gasket kit. I went with fel-pro (also from Summit) for all of my gaskets, there is a big difference between the cheap stuff that came with my remanufactured motor and the good gaskets.

Definetely do the oil pump, water pump, fuel pump and starter. You can get lifetime warranty stuff from Autozone/Parts America/NAPA etc.

Head Work: Man, with those guys time is $$. If you get a good shop though, you get lots of bang for your buck. I wish I would have had the time to have head work done on my remanufactured motor, after seeing all of the rough edges and overcastings, I'm sure I could get a lot more out of my G-wag.

I don't know what kind of budget you are on, but if you have the $$, I would also do the TFI or MSD ignition upgrades. I have been nothing but pleased with my MSD stuff.

And no, my wife was not and is not pleased with how much $$ I spent on my G-wag, and I haven't even lifted it yet ;) .

I hope that helps.

Phil

[billyrb]

Phil, thanks for the input. With regards to the TFI or MSD upgrade, is one a replacement for the other? I thought (correct me if wrong) that people were performing the TFI upgrade, then adding an MSD box....is that true?

~ryan
ps, as for budget, well, this motor will sit on a block for a while. I have enough to do a stock rebuild, and the performer package....but I don't mind waiting a little longer and making the motor that much better.

[billyrb]

any answers to the TFI vs MSD upgrade? Is one a replacement for the other, or do I do both in combination?

~ryan