Summit Cam Change-Out

[jasonthomasfrance]

Lindel: How do you like your cam? Did you notice a performance boost? Is it a good mod? Worth doing? Or would you try something else?

I'll looking for a little more horsepower for my 360. I've got a DUI (Davis Unified Ignition) from Performance Distributors... Thinking about getting Thorley Headers too...

***************
The only cam I've installed into the AMC 360 has been a Summit cam, p/n SUM-K8600. The intake duration @ .050" is 214 degrees, and the exhaust is 224 degrees. Lift, at the intake valve is .472, and exhause is .496. Lobe separation is 112 degrees.
The price included lifters (anti pump up) and was only $79.95.

Seat of the pants was very good, and you could really tell the difference between stock and the Summit cam. The actual manufacturer is Super Stock Industries.

Rpm range is from 1500 - 5000.
*******************

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Anyone else like the Summit cam? Dislikes? Lifters and cam for under a hundred dollars sounds pretty nice. Good performance gains?

[Lindel]

Jason, I was very happy with the cam, and will be installing another one in the Chrerokee, just as soon as we get the wife's car back in order.

It doesn't make itself known at idle, to the point that people will know that you've insalled a cam, or done anything else to the engine, but you will feel the HP difference.

[86wagproject]

Would you guys recommend that cam? I am trying to decide what cam to go with in my 86- heard people say on this board that they didn't care for the edelbrock.I was looking at the summit cams.

[jasonthomasfrance]

I know this is kind of rehashing... So the Summit part number is: SUM-K8600-P3P.

Is there anything to watch out for? I've got a couple warnings from a friend. He's cammed out his son's mustang (among other things to it). And he warns a 360 for you is not necessarily a 360 for me. Every engine is different. And I might have to play around with things to find the right combo for my engine. Which that does make sense, but if it works in most 360s, why not for me too?

And what else would I need to a cam swap operation?

I am pretty serious about getting this part, and will probably order it at the end of this week, depending on what other people have to say about the matter.

BTW the PO put this on: http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Misc_Pix/thumbs/fsj-misc-02.jpg (http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Misc_Pix/fsj-misc-02.jpg)

[porkchop]

I am using the same cam and I am very happy with it s well. I like it for all the same reasons Lindel likes it. I have a few other mods to the engine but not much. The cam is the best upgrade to the engine I have done.

[Lindel]

Jason, the Summit cam is sized very well, as far as lift, duration and overlap for the 360. The Edelbrock cam is a little bit mild for the 360, but would work good for the 304.

For those of you running a 401, the Summit cam in question, the SUM-8600, will work, but you won't see as big an improvement as the 360, simply because of the displacement.

Your friend is right, every engine is different, and every one's needs are different, but the Summit cam is a good alround grind, and will give excellent performance in the 1500 - 4500 rpm range, where our vehicles spend 99% or the time.

Again, the biggest change in engine characteristics that you can make will be the camshaft, bar none. The cam is often referred to as the brain of the engine, it makes all the breathing decisions for the engine, and breathing is the life blood of an internal combustion engine.

[jasonthomasfrance]

All right, new cam here I come! Other questions: What do I need for changing out the cam? I get the lifters with the cam from Summit, right? Gasket for the engine/valve thingy? Take off the clutch fan, belts, etc...

What all is involved? Help a simple fellow!

[Lindel]

First off, you'll need some friends with strong backs and weak minds to get the intake manifold off....

Seriously, the intake has to come off, you'll need what they call a timing gasket set, and an intake set or valley pan gasket. You'll have to take all the accessories off, and or move them out of the way, in the case of the a/c, and power steering pump. Remove the radiator, and you might have to pivot the a/c condenser out of the way.

While you're in the area, you might want to replace the timing set, as well, available from Summit for about $40 (get the Summit brand double roller).

Once you get the intake off and the front of the engine scattered across the yard, then you can remove the lifters (this is one of the fun parts), and before you take the cam out, make SURE that the engine is set for TDC. Line up the dots on the cam and crank sprockets, and ensure that the no. 1 piston is at the top of it's stroke.

Remove the cam, carefully, coat the new cam, very liberally, with assembly lube, slather it on, and very carefully insert the cam into the engine. Use a long bolt that will fit into the end of the cam, it'll make it easier the further into the block you go.

Soak the lifters in whatever weight of oil that you use in the engine overnight, to allow them to fill. Start the night before you change the cam.
Once you do this, you can install the lifters into the lifter bores (makes no difference which lifter goes where, since they are new), and reinstall the rocker assemblies back in the same place that they came from, this is critical.

Reassemble the engine, following the directions for the intake gasket set, and when you're ready, start the engine, and take the rpm's to about 2000 to 2500 max, for about 30 minutes. This is to break in the camshaft. Keep an eye out for obvious leaks in the process.

Once you're done here, then you can go on to the fine tuning process of the carb, etc.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!!

I don't need to mention that you'll have to drain the block of anti-freeze, do I??? ;) ;)

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Lindel ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Howdy,

Just ordered all the gear from Summit! Here's the breakdown:

001 SUM-8600 Cam
016 SUM-HT2011 Lifter
001 FEL-FS8266PT4 Gasket set
001 CRN-64308-1 Valve spring/retainer kit
001 SUM-G6618 Timing Chain

And I think the damage was about 300 bucks with 2nd day shipping. They said it will be delivered on Friday! Cam swapout scheduled for Saturday!

TDC - Top Dead Center? And yes, you do have to mention the draining of the block!! I need to know EVERYTHING! Remember, I'm dumb.

Anything else I need?

[Lindel]

If you have a haynes manual, or a TSM (even a Chilton's manual) you'll have a guide to go by. I don't remember the directions included with the cam, but there are some, as well as those included with the gaskets.

You'll need a tube of engine assembly lube, and when you use it, be generous, this is the only lubrication the cam and associated parts will see during the first few seconds of running.

Since this is the first cam swap you've done, go slow, and if there's any doubt, fire off a question to here. If I'm not on, someone else will be, and you'll probably get a better answer anyway :D . Don't be afraid to take your time, and don't be afraid to ask any questions. Check the tech pages of the IFSJA web site, there might be something about changing a camshaft, if there isn't take good notes, pictures, etc. and fire it off to Adam, so there will be a camshaft changing article. ;)

On draining the engine, there are some screw in plugs, near where the mounts are at, on the bottom of the block, just for this purpose, and you'll want to drain any fluid out of the radiator, too. Cap off the transmission lines, at the radiator, so you can pull it, and the lines from the tranny, so as not to make a mess, and have to add fluid to the tranny. There's no need to drain the engine oil.

Once you get the engine to TDC, and remove the camshaft, DO NOT turn the engine, until you have the camshaft, timing set, timing cover and distributor back in place. Be very careful with the intake, it weighs around 80 to 90 lbs, and is unforgiving, get help with it, seriously. I'd suggest doing this in the auto hobby shop, if Sheppard still has one, if not, get some friends to help with the intake, if nothing else.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Too cool! We're going to do the work at a friend's house. He's cammed out his son's engine, and has most tools, plus beer. I've got about 3 big guys that are interested in watching and heping out, plus a skinny photographer that will use my digital (he doesn't want to get dirty).

Mucho Gracias for all the info! I am so excited about doing this!!!

[jasonthomasfrance]

Woohoo!! According to Summit Racing's website the order shipped out already!!

[86wagproject]

Jason-was wondering how you liked the DUI distributor?I am considering getting one as well and was wondering if it was a worthwhile expense?
I like the idea of a one wire setup.

[jasonthomasfrance]

I really don't know... It's always had the DUI. So I haven't driven it without it. But my jeep has got great pickup and go. That may be partly the 4bbl too though... Sorry I can't really answer your question.

[David Simon]

Jason, there are a few pictures on my site from when I installed a new cam. I also used Summit parts and was very pleased with them. I did all the work by myself and yes the intake is very heavy. It's not hard just time consuming. Take your time to clean everything and you'll be happier with the end result.
Make sure a valley pan comes with your gasket kit, mine was separate. Don't forget to pack the oil pump with petroleum jelly when you put it back together. Also, loosen the front oil pan bolts when putting the timing cover back on and it will save you lots of time.
Take your time because you only want to do it once. As Lindel said, the break in period is crucial for a new cam. Good luck, let us know if you run into any problems. Have the photographer take lots of pictures in case you forget where some of the brackets go.
David

[TPIGUY]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 86wagproject:
Jason-was wondering how you liked the DUI distributor?I am considering getting one as well and was wondering if it was a worthwhile expense?
I like the idea of a one wire setup.<hr></blockquote>

From my experience programming EPROMs to run AMC 360s, DUIs timing curve needs improvement. They don't have enough timing at low RPM. Their vacuum advance is only half the advance of the factory advance motor, but their RPM advance is nearly twice that AMC once you get up to 4000 RPM. So if you drive mostly at low RPMs, you'll notice a lack of performance down low. I duplicated DUIs curve in one of my chips, and it ran like crap. I put the factory timing curve back in the chip and it ran a lot better. Don't get me wrong, their distributor is a smooth finely built unit, but it could use some more thought in the curving department.

TPIGUY
www.customefis.com (http://www.customefis.com)

[jasonthomasfrance]

So hwo would you fix the low end of the DUI's rpms? Or can it be adjusted?

[jasonthomasfrance]

All righty... Getting ready to do the cam on Sat/Sun. I'm getting new valve springs. Hopefully my friend's tool works. He's got a compression thingy that does something, to the something... And then you can remove the spark plugs and something something... And take the springs out without removing the head... Sounds cool? Eh?! If only I knew what he was talking about...

Any last minute tips?

[Lugnut]

Hmmm...
1. How comest you taking the valve springs off? I thought you was jes' gonna do a cam job...
2. Unless you WANT to change out the oil pump gears I don't see a need to disassemble the oil pump. Just leave it be.

[CSmith]

Last minute tips: I ran some carbom remover stuff through my engine before the teardown. I don't remember what brand it was, but you revved the engine and poured it down the carb. Lots of black crud and smoke comes out the exhaust. I also ran an engine cleaner in the oil. You MUST drop the pan after this because you need to shovel out all the crud that loosened up. Having the pan off was a great advantage in the lifter removing process. The small block Chevy in my '72 wag had a lot of miles on it and the lifters were kind of mushroomed on the bottom. Rather than forcing them out the bore, I was able to lift them enough to get the cam out, then push them through the bottom on to the floor. Count them before you button it up-if you don't have 16, then you have some stuck in the bottom end. The engine douche as great-it cleaned the inside of that tired old (free) SBC nicely. Use fresh oil for the break-in, and change it again. Don't be cheap, the extra $15.00 for second oil & filter is cheap compared to another cam job ;) I also found that Permatex Hylomar HPF is about the best gasket sealer in existence. It is non-hardening and can be used immediately. Try to find the engine douche on your way to work and run it before the teardown, and don't forget a pan gasket.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Lugnut: Ah... dunno? Was told by a couple people (well, including summit) saying it wasn't a bad idea with the cam change... And my friend has the neat dohickey, forces pressure on something and allows this other tool to screw in and pop the spring(s) out? Didn't quite follow when he explained it. But he's recammed his son't mustang about 5 times in the past 3 years. (they were trying to figure out cam/lifter blah blah blah and his son is running NOX so that was screwing stuff up...)

[Sgt. Dave]

Your buddy has you on the right track. Change the valve springs and put in new seals while you are there. If you are working in a garage, just mark the hood hinges and pull the hood before you start. It will make the job sooooo much easier. :D

[jasonthomasfrance]

Big question here then: Should I change the valve springs with the cam change? I ordered them... But my buddy said it'll add like 2-3 hours to the process, and if I don't have to...

Now the question isn't quite, do I have to change the valve springs, since Lindel and other haven't indicated they absolutely need to be change for this new cam... Should I change them since I bought them, or save a hundred bucks and send them back after the engine tests out okay? (save them for a few days in case there are actual spring problems...)

[RustyJeep]

Well, heres a question. When you ordered the valve springs, did you get new keepers and retainers too? I ask this because AMC retainers like to have(seem to get) hairline cracks in them, and as a rule, it is always good to change them out when messing with the springs. You don't want a retainer to fail and have a valve drop into the combustion camber. :eek: Not a good site. If you are debating whether or not to put the springs on, and don't have the above hardware, and can't get it before Sat/Sun, then I wouldn't worry about the springs.

[jasonthomasfrance]

I asked the Summit guy about the retainers (it's on the recommended parts list in addition to the cam kit). And he said if I know for a fact I have bad retainers, then yes, get them. If not, he said don't worry about it.

But now with that piece of info about the hairline cracks, and not have retainers, I guess I won't worry about changing the springs (unless something bad happens, in which case I'll have to order the retainers and keepers).

Thanks!

[jasonthomasfrance]

photos for:it has begun!! (http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Cam_Change/)

[RWC]

If you're putting in a new cam and lifters, why did you bother to clean your old ones? If I'm asking a stupid question, go ahead and slap me. :confused:

RWC

[RustyJeep]

I think those are his new ones. You have to soak them in oil overnight so they are full when you put them in.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Yeah, I'm starting the soaking process. Can't wait to go to bed, wake up, and start working!!

I'm almost too excited to sleep, is that bad or what? It's like Christmas! :D

[DavidSUTTON]

:eek: i have a ???? :confused: our beasts get pissy fuel mileage as it is. do you get better or worse with this cam :confused: i am currently working on my heads that are milled .035 and my 360 has a .030 overbore tongue.gif and running a 390 stock intake and a carter 625 AFB :D intake is gasket matched and pistons are flattops tongue.gif i cannot wait!!!! and a true roller chain and gears plus the valley oil line modification! and are these ROL gaskets good for 250,000 miles like the last rebuild on this 360 was? tongue.gif I wonder just how strong my motor will be? :D LOL

[jasonthomasfrance]

Yes, it's morning already! Just gotta eat, print some stuff out, and go! See you guys in a few hours (read: about 10 tonight :D )

[Dive 30]

Good luck

if you have one, a magnet is a real slick way to pull the old lifters

Phil

[Marvin Gates]

Hey Dave Sutton, were you able to buy the valley oil line mod or did you do it yourself. Just curious if its available some where. If it is would you let us know where? We were talking about it on IRC last night and no one new where to get it. Thanks M.G.

[RWC]

Performance American Style carries it (I think; he'll at LEAST by able to get one), and American Performance Products, at http://www.oldcarparts.com definately does. I had my engine-builder discuss the HotRod oiling-mods (including the internal line) with Randy at Performance American Style, and he believes that it is unnecessary on an engine that won't be seeing sustained speeds over 5500 RPM. Since I have mine limited to 5200, I wasn't too concerned about it.

RWC

[Marvin Gates]

Thanks RWC, that is the part that they neglected to say! M.G.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Howdy. Guess what? We're not done yet! Here are 60 pics (yes 60) of the current status: Cam Shaft Swap (http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Cam_Change/)

We put the new lifters new, and set the valley pan on, but haven't put the oil pan on yet. Another full day tomorrow!!

[jasonthomasfrance]

It's 7am, and I'm waitinf for my friend to take me over to the jeep and start working again. Wish me luck putting it back together! :D

[jasonthomasfrance]

HELP HELP HELP

Everything is back together. But it won't start. It is firing on the exhaust stroke, when it should be firing on the intake. I have a DUI dizzy and can't find where number one fires at.

Does anybody know? Went to PerformanceDistributors.com and they don't have their manual online.

This is the only thing we can think of... The carb is blowing out when it should be sucking... It's like completely 180 from #1 fire.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Could my rods be too tight? Someone suggested I tightened them down too hard (they should sping). And perhaps one of the valves isn't opening/closing all the way?

Need help...

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[JeepFreak]

Your just 180 degrees out is all. Turn the engine over till the piston comes back to top dead center again then stab the dizzy. The marks on the harmonic balancer will show TDC for exhaust and intake strokes. You just found TDC for the exhaust stroke instead of the intake stroke is all.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Ahh... we've done that four times... And I think we got it the last time. Tried that test I mentioned above, and the dizzy returned to the correct place.

BUT... It's still exhausting when it's supposed to be sucking. Could my push rods be too tight?

New pics uploaded to me site of todays activity. Most exciting thing was we dropped a bolt down the dizzy hole. Had to grab it out with a magnet. Couldn't see the bolt though, fished around for about a half hour...

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[Lindel]

Sorry I haven't been online this weekend, but the phone's been out (phone co. decided to bury the lines in our neighborhood this week, since the lines get brought down everytime a new house gets moved in :( ).

Jason, if you haven't installed the driver's side valve cover, then watch the rocker arms when the rotor in the distributor is where the no. 1 plug wire lives (should be about 5:00 o'clock, as you look directly down on the distributor cap). The no. 1 piston should be at the very top of it's stroke, both valves close (or rocker arms at the highest point), rotor pointing at no. 1 wire, and TDC indicated on the harmonic balancer.

If all that is where it needs to be, then the problem is else where. Have you got the plugs wires on the right plugs? Remember, the driver's side is 1, 3, 5, 7, and the passenger side is 2, 4, 6, 8. I don't remember the firing order off the top of my head, but it's 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 or something along those lines. Any manual will have the correct one (same as a Chevy, IIRC).

The next place to look is the ignition, are the connectors good and tight? No shorts anywhere? The wire (green) that used to go to the stock coil will keep the engine from starting, if it's shorted to ground.

Look for obvious vacuum leaks, since you haven't got it running yet (open vacuum ports, cracked hoses).

I'll be checking in from time to time today, let me know where you stand.

[jasonthomasfrance]

The bad news is, I can't quite go by those directions. Number 1 fire isn't the 5 o'clock position for the DUI. According to the way it was setup before it's 10 o'clock.

And I can't go by the ignition wires, as they are "new". But we are getting spark and everything seems to be firing. I'll check the grounds/wires on the ignition.

I took the driver's side valve cover off last night, slightly different reason. And today I'm going to take it off again so I can see at TDC if the springs are compressed or released. TDC with everything where it should be... I need to call DUI and find out where #1 fires at on the DUI...

The DUI's plug wires are all labelled, so it was easy putting them in the right order and everything.

Would the engine not start because of a vacuum leak??? The short/ground I can see I guess...

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[Lindel]

If the vacuum leak is bad enough, yes it can, but it would be fairly obvious. It would at least start, if that was all that was wrong.

The cam determines the firing order, so that won't have changed. I don't have any experience with the DUI, so can't help there. You'll need an HEI specialist for that one.

With out being able to "see and touch", I don't know if I can be much help. Sorry :(

[jasonthomasfrance]

When you tightene your rods down, how tight did you go? And I didn't measure my new lifters, but possbily they are a hair bigger than to old ones?

[Lindel]

If you've got the pedestal type rockers (There's a bridge connection for the pair), you tighten them down all the way, there's no adjustment.

If you're lucky enough to have actual studs, then the adjustment is to barely snug, on initial install, then when running, adjust until you can "just" no longer turn the push rods. Not hard, but messy, since oil will get slung all over the engine compartment.

[jasonthomasfrance]

I think the pictures show a pedestal style. Two bolts that go into little "shoes" or something with a better name... I tightened them down (not with Arnold strength).

Someone had told me you are supposed to be able to spin the rod with your fingers...

[Lindel]

I've always gone by the "just till it stops turning method", and it's always worked for me.

You do have the pedestal mounts, so it's a mute point. Tighten them down (don't do the gorilla thing!! ;) ), and you're done with that.

Does the engine at least try to start?

You might look at the DUI website, and see if they have any type of trouble shooting guide.

[Lindel]

Jason, if you're at somewhere you can call long distance, I'm at 214-353-1521

[jasonthomasfrance]

I'm going to try calling the PO at about 2pm today (to see if he didn anything special with the dizzy), and after that try the DUI company.

First thing I'm going to look for is ground/shorts.

Second I'm going to turn it to TDC, take the valve covers off, look at #1 cylinder, and see where it's at. Then maybe I'll loosen all the rods and retighten. Perhaps they were tightened off TDC...

It doesn't even catch, and it's getting feul. Just spins, and sputters out the carb.

[Lindel]

I know this is blantantly obvious, and I'm not trying to be insulting. Did you remember to put the rotor back in the distributor?

It really sounds as if something is shorted to ground, or a connection is loose/off.

[jasonthomasfrance]

But would that cause the carb to sputter, and little wisps of smoke to come out the oil tube?

That's what I'll first go hunting today, is a short or something... Maybe a wire got forgotten?

The rental car place is coming to pick me up in a little while. My wife and I had to call off work today, because we don't have a car...

[Michael]

Regardless of what type of distributor you have. TDC is TDC. It should slide in the same direction. Chances are is you are only 1/4 off. Did you try turning the distributor while your buddy turns the engine over? Another thing, is the timing chaing set correctly. Very possible it is 180deg out. TDC will put the rotor pointing at 5o'clock. I could be very wrong but it should not matter what distributor you have because the rotors always have to fire on the #1 cylinder. Meaning the rotor would have to be set there first in order to fire. Now the po very possibly could have put it in 180 out and wired it that way. It is very easy to do, ask Derf his was that way when I got there. Sounds like you have covered all of this but it sure sounds like to me you are 180deg out. That is exactly what it would do. Cough out the carb. Good luck. You can call me if you want. It has to be that.

[JeepFreak]

Ok I am going to tell you the easiest way to get your rig running cause it sounds 100% like a timing issue. Take out the #1 spark plug. Put your thumb over the spark plug hole. Then have your better half bump the starter untill air try's to push your thumb off the hole. That will be TDC on compression stroke. Then stab your dizzy. I don't care where the rotor lines up just put it in there. Once it is seated then put the rotor on. Where ever that rotor is pointing on that cap make that your #1. Now stick your #1 plug wire on there. Then going clock wise from the number one plug wire on the cap connect 8,4,3,6,5,7, then 2. This should at least get it to fire if the cam is stabbed correctly. Once it is running you can restab the dizzy later to clean up the wires locations.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Big Question: #1 fire at TDC has to be at the five o'clock position on the dizzy (any dizzy)???

We've done the pivotting the dizzy back/forth 1/4... The timing chain was turned dot to dot at TDC.

Here's the thing!! #1 fire on current dizzy is at the 10 o'clock position.

As you can see from this picture taken days before, #1 spark plug cable is not at 5 o'clock.

<a href="http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Misc_Pix/fsj-misc-02.jpg" target="_blank">
http://www.jasonthomasfrance.com/photos/Jeep_FSJ_Misc_Pix/thumbs/fsj-misc-02.jpg</a>

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

JeepFreak: That was exactly my thought!! So put it at TDC, (dizzy is already stabbed), and where evet the rotor is pointing, make that #1 fire?? And then put the other cables in the correct order around #1...

[JeepFreak]

Just do like I said and where ever the rotor wants to line up@TDC make that your #1 and adjust the other wires off of the #1 wires new location. The problem you are having is trying to get the rotor to line up just right. To do that you have to take a long screwdriver and rotate the oil pump shaft so it will line up with the dizzy. I would just leave the dizzy where it is and move the wires on the cap.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Gotcha, now I just need someone to help me find TDC... I want to clone myself!!

[Michael]

Jason.

Jeepfreak is right on the money. Go spend $13 for a remote starter. Turn the engine over with the starter. Make sure you unplug the ingnition coil you should be able to turn it with the remote while you feel the pressure on your thumb. Once you feel the pressure on you thumb stop, grab you 3/4 deep socket and turn the crank to line up the timing mark to TDC or Zero. Then you are there. Correct it does not matter where the rotor points, just that you have the wire firing correctly.

[jasonthomasfrance]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JeepFreak:
Your just 180 degrees out is all. Turn the engine over till the piston comes back to top dead center again then stab the dizzy. The marks on the harmonic balancer will show TDC for exhaust and intake strokes. You just found TDC for the exhaust stroke instead of the intake stroke is all.<hr></blockquote>

Which mark is what for intake/exhaust? Does the chiltons say?

I'm going to try it in about an hour. Thank goodness it's warmed up.

[Michael]

I would say do not worry about that. Pull the number one plug and put your finger over the hole like jeepfreak said. Turn the engine over you will start to feel air or compression coming out of the spark plug hole. That will indicate you are on the compression stroke. Keep turning it will eventually stop. Do not keep going once the air stops coming out of the block. What this is the piston is pushing to the top of the chamber, creating compression. Once it stops it is at the top or close too. Look at your timing mark. Line it up on zero. That should do it perfectly. Call me if you need any help. 817-915-5449

[jasonthomasfrance]

Nope, I've done it four times. So, unless I am just a hair off... But here's the thing, I'm still blowing air out the carb.

I'm not getting backfires, not partial starts, nothing. It just turns over, and sputters.

What could have gone wrong?

The spark plugs are sparking. TDC is set and the rotor is turned pretty darn close to #1 cylinder cable. Like, so close it's only a hair or two off...

Is that cam just too big, lifters just too big? What's going on that the carb is sputtering, after being placed at TDC?

[jasonthomasfrance]

Give me some more troubleshooting tips. What could we have done wrong?

[Swede]

You say a hair close to number 1 cylinder cable? You must have a initial timing about 8-10 degrees and if you have that you will see that your rotor has passed your number1 cylindercable at Top Dead Center. Remember your engine are firing BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER. I dont know what happens if you set the timing to exactly top dead center but I know it schould be BEFORE. Refer to the book how much.
Swede.

[dennis w helt]

sounds like your cam wasnt degreed in right

[David Simon]

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel helpless being this far away and unable to help.
Jason, when you do that much work it's usually something simple.
When I put mine back together I had to prime the fuel pump(I think it was going bad anyway) and put quite a bit of fuel in the carb to get it going. There's allot of fuel between the pump and carb.
If that doesn't get it try to retrace your wires yet again. Like these guys said, find #1 TDC and work from there.

I hope you get it, we're all here for you.

David

[jasonthomasfrance]

Hmm... I've advanced and retarded the timing as much as turning the dizzy will allow... I wish I was smarter...

The rental car is costing me 50 bucks a day, and my wife's jeep is in the shop for tranny work, won't be out for another week.

Along the timing issues: would all that cause the carb to sputter?? It's almost like air is being forced out the carb. Why? I don't believe it ever did that before.

This is my first time here guys. I've never had an engine apart before. But I did have a couple seasoned shadetree mechanics looking over my shoulder and drinking beer.

About the only thing we know is this: TDC is all lined up. The harmonic balancer matches with the #1 cylinder up. The carb sputters. But the carb is wet with gas. The plugs spark...

Other things I did: The air conditioner unit is completely off (inside and out). And the air pump/smog unit is off too. Tightened the rods down, put the valley pan in, dropped a bolt down the dizzy tube (got it out). Had to drop the oil pump. Put the oil pan on...

Nothing else jumps at me...

[Michael]

Jason. What is your number we need to talk this one out. If everything was done correctly it should work.

[jasonthomasfrance]

It's 940 851 6713. I just can't think why the carb is sputtering... But we'll have to talk tomorrow or something. I need to go to bed. I'm getting so old... My bones are creaking for working the past 2-3 days straight on this...

I can't think of waht I've done wrong. THe Harm balancer lines up with the piston at TDC... I wish I knew more about this dizzy... But a dizzy is a dizzy...

[Michael]

Okay. Go rest you tired old bones. You can call me as well once you are up and around tomorrow. When is a good time to call? My mobile is 817-915-5449 call me anytime.

[jasonthomasfrance]

It'll have to be in the evening, as I can't call long distance at work. The jeep is across town at a friend's house. One of his sons (a mustang man, has cammed out and done other things to his and his brother's mustangs) is going to take a look at the thing. His other son helped us put the cam and timing chain on...

Say around 6pm? Whenever is good for you... smile.gif Wish I could talk during the day.

[Michael]

Call me anytime tomorrow evening. That number is my cell and I will have it on all day. I have a couple of things you will need to check. That may solve your problem. I am a chevy guy in the past and done lots of this, not sure if amc is any diffrent but maybe we can put our heads together. If you can tell me what you see then that will be great, I have a few ideas of what to look for. Talk to you later. And go to bed. ;)

[jasonthomasfrance]

Okay, then it will have to be 5-6. It'll take me that long to get out to the jeep. So I'll call from the jeep, so we can talk some things through.

Hopefully it won't be too cold out... :D I can't wait to hit the hay, my wife is making me tomato soup and grilled cheese sandwiches! Warm tummy, the warm bed! Night everyone...

[Michael]

I new you had a great wife when I met her. She is doing a great job. ;) I will talk to you tomorrow. I will be on my way home then so all I will be doing is driving :eek: Later, and get warm!

[jasonthomasfrance]

*yawn* Too darn early too darn soon. Do you think she magically fixed herself overnight? Yeah right... :rolleyes:

[Lindel]

Jason, did you replace the timing set? If you did, then there might be a problem. Most performance timing sets will allow you to advance or retard 4 degrees from normal. Someone mentioned that the cam might be ground off of 0 degrees timing reference. I don't think this is the problem.

The performance timing sets usually come with three sets of keyways, 120 degrees apart. This is to allow an experienced person to custom tailor the cam timing for racing. It's possible, and from you're description of air coming from the carburetor (without it backfiring!), that this is the case. The main quesion is did you replace the timing set, too?

Give me your number at work, if you can, and I'll call you.

If you didn't replace the timing set, or the timing set didn't have 3 keyways, then this isn't the problem. Then the problem is most likely either too much fuel, to the point that the plugs are so wet that they won't fire, or it's the ignition system, and spark isn't really getting to the plugs. Best way to tell on the spark, is to use a timing light. If the timing light is being triggered, then you have spark at the plug, and you might even be able to see when this occurs while trying to start the car. If the timing is correct, and you're getting spark, then you'll see the timing mark at, or near, the correct place. Take a piece of chalk, and mark the front of the balancer, so you'll be able to see it, regardless of where it's at, when the light is triggered. If you can't see it, or it's 1/3 or so of the way away from the timing mark, then you know that's the problem (if you can't see the chalk mark, it'll be 180 out).

That should settle the timing issue, and the spark issue, and it'll have to be a fuel issue.

[Banks]

JTF,Just a thought.1-Was this running prior to the cam swap? 2-Was the new dist. installed prior to cam swap? 3-Are you sure the lifters are correct?[same height]Sounds like ignition issue to me.I'f you have the original dist. I would reinstall this and take it back to the original configuration.[eleminate new dist. problem]If the lifters are too tall the valves will not close and you would be getting compression back through the carb.Just some ideas.Good luck. Marc :cool:

[billyrb]

Dear god, I hope I don't encounter this problem!!!

~ryan

[jasonthomasfrance]

Okay, in order:

Lindel - I got the timing chain you recommended from Summit... Didn't mess at all with the keys on the timing chain... Don't know if it had three keyways. Got the Summit brand timing chain... Haven't tried using the timing light yet.

Banks - Yes, it was running with the dizzy. The lifters came with the cam. It's kit from Summit, supposedly the same one Lindel has in.

Another thing we want to try is check the compression of every cylinder...

[Michael]

Lindel. Is the timing chain any diffrent that stock? Maybe a roller. The only thing I could imagine is that the cam is dialed wrong. In a real world and I thought the summit cams were this way, it should connect in just like the stock one. Although I have not touched an amc cam, in the gm world you can dial them diffrently but you would have to have a degree wheel to get that correct. Otherwise you just put them in and the cam lines up with the pulley.

Jason. Before you go to you friends house tonight. Stop at the auto store. Get a TDC finder. It is a small tool which you plug into the #1 spark plug hole. Turn the engine until it will not turn....manually turn it. Do not use the ignition. Once it stops the piston you are at tdc. Take off the valve cover. Look at the intake and the exhaust springs. If they are compressed than the cam is dialed wrong. I could be wrong so someone correct me, I may be bass aackwards. But I would look there first. Please someone correct me is I am bass aackwards. I do not want to give Jason the wrong info.

[jasonthomasfrance]

That driver's side valve cover is not fun to remove...

Here's what I'm going to do tonight: I'm going to run compression tests on all the cylinders. If everything tests out fine (if they don't leak out fast) then I'm going to shoot a timing light to see when things are hitting (to see if the timing chain is set right).

On Wed I'm going to move the jeep inside, then I'll take the valve cover off. It's too cold to sit over the engine with my butt in the air wrenching on the darn thing...

Lindel: You used the Summit brand timing chain, correct? Did you change anything? Or put it on dot to dot? We put ours on dot to dot.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

Lindel: Did you use the Summit Timing Chain? If so did you do anything special?

And can I tow my jeep with the transmission in nuetral, with the front wheels on a tower/puller? I have to get it to the hobby shop across town, so I can work on it indoors.

[Banks]

JTF,Timing should have been dot to dot unless any destructions say otherwise.You need to pull the rear driveshaft[wrap duct tape around u-joints to keep the caps on].You've got me sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to find out what the problem is,so let us know what you find. Marc :cool:

[jasonthomasfrance]

Dot to dot is how we had it. We put the SUM-G6618, True Roller Timing Chain... I hope the cam isn't dialed wrong.

I'll tow it to the shop tomorrow. Drop the rear driveshaft? I was afraid of that...

I'll check cylinder compression first, then I''ll pull the valve cover like Michael suggested, rotate to TDC, and check intake/exhaust spring position.

[Banks]

JTF,I am assuming you have the QT transfer case.[driveshaft} Marc :cool:

[jasonthomasfrance]

Yep, QT 4 wheel drive all the time...

[Rande]

Could it be the cam is installed wrong? The crankshaft turns twice for every rotation of the cam. If the crank got turned one revolution before the new timing set got installed, the cam would 180 degrees out of synch. If the engine is firing out the carb, then it is firing at the top of the exhaust stroke which is also the beginning of the intake stroke. If it fires then, with the intake valve open, it will fire out the carb.
You are doing all these ignition timing adjustments, I wonder if the trouble mught be a cam timing problem. Is it possible the cam was installed 180 degrees wrong?

[jasonthomasfrance]

Anything is possible, I'd like to think it wasn't... I suppose there isn't a way to tell unless you pull it, right?

Gotta run some other tests before I go pulling the cam out... Compression, spring position, timing position, etc...

[RustyJeep]

If it was 180 dgrees off, couldn't you just spin the dizzy 180 degrees to fix the problem?? I might just be talking outta my Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley too, though. :cool: :cool:

[64Trvlr]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jasonthomasfrance:
Gotta run some other tests before I go pulling the cam out... Compression, spring position, timing position, etc...<hr></blockquote>

DO NOT keep on turning the engine over to find out what is wrong with it. That's the quickest way to ruin the cam I know of. I hope you don't have any flat lobes by now. You need to take your time and go step by step and figure out what is wrong and fix it before the cam lobes are completely flat. Get a shaft to pre oil the engine, hook it to a drill and run it for several minutes. Now you have some oil on the bearings.
Install the distributor. Pull the number one plug stick your finger in the hole, turn the engine over by hand till you are on the compression stroke and air comes out past your finger. STOP
Put the plug back in, look at the rotor position in the distributor. Where ever it points is number one, set the cap on the distributor see which post the rotor is pointing to. That's # 1, put that plug wire on, next one clockwise is # 8, then #4, #3, #6, #5, #7, and #2. Do not worry if it's doesn't point where it did last week. Put the wires on one at a time and make sure they are on the correct plugs. Then make sure the coil wire is on.
Make sure the distributor hold down bolt it snug and not tight. Then you will be able to move the distributor with your hand to set it.
Make sure there is gas in the carb. Make sure the idle screw is turned in a turn or two past where it was. That way when it starts it will be at a high idle. Hook up a timing light, pump the gas once. Have someone crank it over while you aim the timing light at the timing marks. See where the light is on the marks, if no light you have no spark.
STOP
Find out why there is no spark, fix that and continue.
If you have spark and gas it will fire up. When it does turn up the idle screw so it idles fast 2000-2500 RPM. DO NOT rev it up over and over, that is bad for the cam. Once you have a good fast idle, slowly turn the distributor until it's running as smooth as possible. Let it run 30-45 minutes between 1750-2500 RPM.
Good luck.
:cool:

[TPIGUY]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 64Trvlr:


DO NOT keep on turning the engine over to find out what is wrong with it. <hr></blockquote>

64 is right, don't keep turning the motor over. If you mistimed the cam (and its easy to do) its too late to fix it. When I did it on my Chevy engine, the valves hit the pistons, fortunately, the pushrods were the weak link and I bent all 16 of them. I found this out by doing a compression check after my freshly rebuilt engine wouldn't start and seemed to be free wheeling with the starter. You can tell by the sound of the engine whether it has compression or not. I just needed reassurnace that I screwed up the cam timing before taking the timing chain back off and retiming the thing.

Here is what happens. There are three different marks on both the cam gear and the crankshaft gear. In the case of Chevy small blocks, there is an oval (zero), and rectangle, and a triangle. Well, in my haste, I lined the oval on the crank gear with the rectangle on the cam gear. As soon as I turned the engine over with the starter, I bent every pushrod, and guess what, the bent rods saved my engine. When I retimed the cam and replaced all the pushrods, the engine ran fine and still runs fine today. The lesson I learned from this is to turn the engine over by hand 720 degrees before putting juice to the starter and to not go so fast. But to solve your problem, do a compression check. If you've already turned the engine over with the starter, and the cam is mistimed, then its too late to worry about it. Just hope your pushrods bent like mine did.

TPIGUY

[jasonthomasfrance]

Yeah, definitely compression checks tonight.

But I hope the cam isn't dialed wrong. On this cam I thought there was only one way it went. It had two holes on the stub to put the keys, and the keys had to be facing up. And then the key for the harmonic balancer faced up too. Then the timing chain went dot to dot. And we used almost three tubes for assembly lube on the cam and lifters.

To me we did the timing/cam right, all keys facing up... With all the key holes facing up, we're at TDC, right?

TDC for the harmonic balancer (HB) is the deep line cut in it. And then for the intake stroke it's the two dots drilled into it, right? When at TDC the line on the HB should be at the 12 o'clock position.

If I have to pull the cam out, how can I tell if it's "going bad"?

We are getting spark, and we've turned to TDC about a dozen times, stabbed the dizzy, and lined up the plugs, and the carb still sputters.

Compression check and then timing check... The oiling sounds pretty easy to do, with the drill. You mean to put it down the dizzy shaft and spin the oil pump, right? Or??

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[Lindel]

It sounds like the cam is in correctly, and if you have spark, all that's left is the fuel. I don't know much about the 4350, but let me ask this. Did the engine backfire at anytime in this whole process? If it did, and the 4350 has a power valve (I suspect it does), you might be flooding the engine everytime you try to start it. A backfire will blow the power valve in the carb, very easily, and if that happens, then the engine will flood, very easily.

You've said before that the interior of the carb is wet with fuel, which tells me that you've got too much fuel there. Check the power valve, if you've had a backfire, even recently.

To flat tow the QT, just put the QT in neutral, and leave the tranny in neutral or park (neutral if you've got to steer).

TDC will put the timing mark (the line on the HB) at the 0 degree mark on the timeing pointer cast into the timing cover.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Lindel ]</p>

[jasonthomasfrance]

It never backfired... Not even tried to start for us...

I'll check the fuel though...

I can't put the QT into neutral because the lower reduction unit is mangled (well the lever on the inside of the case is mangled). I can only put the tranny in neutral.

[Banks]

Lindel,I think JTF said he was putting the front end on a tow dolly,I'm pretty sure he still needs to pull the rear d-shaft if thats the case. Marc :cool:

[Lindel]

If you don't have far to go, you can use the dolly, but I'd go underneath and shift the QT manually to the center position (neutral), or undo the driveshafts, just to be safe.

I really wish I was there, and could help, Jason. I feel really bad about this, and all the problems you're having.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Yeah, I can't manually put the lower reduction unit into neutral. Pieces of the linkage literally came out the (LRU) drain plug hole when replacing the chain... It's stuck in high... See the pics on my page under DriveTrain.

I'll drop the rear driveshaft, not that big of a deal. Then it'll be towed somewhere warm, and I'll be able to work on it indoors.

[TexasJ10]

It has been gut wrenching to read this post the last few days. I can't contribute more to the conversation but wanted to pass on both my support, and an offer to pull my stock distributor and fedex it to you if you think it would help narrow the problem further. I know that sometimes it is difficult to locate a problem when everything isn't stock. Good luck Jason and I hope this thing works for you in the near future. It looks like you have some of the best experts in the field helping.

[64Trvlr]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TPIGUY:
64 is right, don't keep turning the motor over. If you've already turned the engine over with the starter, and the cam is mistimed, then its too late to worry about it. <hr></blockquote>

It not to late to ruin your cam. If you keep turning the engine over without oil pressure you WILL have flat cam lobes. At this point it might be cheaper and better to pay a real mechanic a few bucks to look things over and see what is wrong. If you keep turning the engine over without starting it ( checking compression, looking for TDC, ect. ) the cam will need to be replaced.
And yes you put the drive rod in to run the oil pump.
:cool:

[64Trvlr]

I forgot to mention to make sure the battery if fully charged or on a charger when you get ready to start it. You don't want the battery dying on you as you start the engine.
:cool:

[Sgt. Dave]

I know you don't want to, but bite the bullet, pull the timing cover back off and check the cam setup. Get a degree wheel, and see whats going on. I think you are 180 out on the cam.

If you keep cranking the engine , you are going to end up putting in another new cam anyway.

BTW, did you put in new pushrods? Were they the right length. If you got some that were too long, and are holding the valves open... Take a look at the valve train geometry.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Used the same rods, kept them in the correct order and everything. At the minimum I can turn the engine to TDC and look at the #1 cylinder tonight...

[Michael]

Agreed with Sgt Dave. I think you are 180 out on the cam. You can check that by setting it at tdc one more time, do it manually. Pull that valve cover and see what the rockers are doing. If they are pushing the valves in....you are 180 out. Another thing is.... are you setting tdc on the drivers side cylinder????? I have seen some people do it on #2 and that will not work for obvious reasons.

If you do not have it running by Saturday. I can come up there. It will not be a problem. It has to be something simple.

[Banks]

Correct me if i'm wrong,[sure someone will]but I belive the only way to get the cam timing wrong is if the "dots" don't line up. Marc :cool: Still say the "dizzy" is 180 out. :eek:

[jasonthomasfrance]

Okay these engines are "four stroke" engines. A stroke being the movement of the piston (or rods?)

1. Compression
2. Exhaust
3. Intake
4. Ignition

Two of the strokes align the keys on the crankshaft in the up position. What I think may have happened is we lined the timing chain and cam to the wrong rotation of the crankshaft. Does that make sense? Perhaps when we were taking the balancer off we turned the engine over...

I don't think the position of the dizzy matters in this instance, as we've been moving the plugs to match the position of the rotor...

I will definitely be looking at the position of the #1 cylinder rods/pedestals to see where we are at with TDC.

And yes *grin* TDC is the driver's side first cylinder at the very tippy top...

[Michael]

Sorry Jason...not trying to offend you. But I had to mention that. Hard to help on the net. I appoligize if my comment came accross that way. Just trying to help.

Sounds like you are on the money with the keys. Good Luck.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Michael ]</p>

[Banks]

JTF,the timing mark on the crankshaft has two "Strokes" that your concerned with.On one "stroke" the #1 exhaust valve will be open[pushed down]but closing[spring coming up] as you get closer to the "TDC" mark[you do not want to put the Dizzy in here], now turn the crank[one turn] till the mark comes around to "TDC" again and both #1 valves will be closed[not pushed down].This is where you want to install the dizzy with the rotor pointing at the #1 spark plug wire on the cap.I hope this helps. Marc :cool:

[jasonthomasfrance]

No worries Michael, I've had to troubleshoot with other users too (over the phone is the worst). No offense taken!

I guess we'll see what's up tonight...

[Lindel]

I have to agree with Michael, it's just as frustrating for us as it is for you, trouble shooting over the internet!!

Yes, a 4-stroke engine consists of 1. power, 2. exhaust, 3. intake and 4. compression.

The cam only turns once during all this, and the crank turns twice, so if the relationship between the cam, and the crank is wrong, then you can the cam 180 out, and the distributor in correctly, and end up an effective 360 out! (keep in mind that the crank turns through 720 degrees).

Jason, I hope this is the problem, and you can get back on the road soon.

Good Luck, and let us know!!

[Lugnut]

This may be a little late to help, Jason, but someone mentioned using a magnet to help get the lifters out. Sometimes this works, sometimes not, most of the time I tried it, it didn't help, and probably because the lifters tend to mush out at he bottom over the miles. I found a tool made for the purpose and it works very well. It's K-D part # 2114. Can't remembe where I got it or what I paid for it, but it made the job much easier.
I guess you would just call it a lifter removal tool, can't remember what it was called on the blister pack it came in.

[Lugnut]

Geez. I didn't read all of the problems Jason's having with this job or I wouldn't have even mentioned the lifter tool. Dang, at this point he prob. doesn't even wanna hear 'bout a lifter tool. Sorry Jason. My hearts out there for you.

[Michael]

Keep us posted Jason. I am open Saturday if you do not get her running. Would love to come up and lend a hand.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Finally the jeep is in the shop where it's warm... I think we may have mis-dialed the crankshaft, or mis-keyed the timing chain.

Item I checked tonight: Placed #1 cylinder at TDC, took off valve cover. Springs for the #1 cylinder where released (uncompressed). The balancer line was at 10 o'clock.

Items I will check tomorrow: pressure on each cylinder to make sure they are holding steady...

Then I will proceed to take the timing cover off and re-align the cam, crank, timing chain...

*sigh* There aren't enough hours in the day. Thanks for everyone's support and tips. I'll keep you all posted on what I find!

[Michael]

Please do. I am very curious. I am planning on doing this in a month or so as welll....you are beginning to make me sweat. I have done this many times on sbc things. Never seen one this hard.

[ColeTrickle]

Boy-Howdy, JasonThomasFrance.
I've been watching the thread for some time now...and I must say you have come a long way in your mechanic dialect.

As always Best of Luck!

[Michael]

Hey Cole...we need to hook up. Just wanted to throw that your way!!!!!

[nxcj]

WOW...like you need another 2 cents worth....but I'll go anyway (ignore me if I'm being redundant).

If #1 is at TDC (For Sure) and both valves are not compressed (closed), the timing mark on the balancer WILL be at ten o'clock as that is where the degree marks on the cover are (just left of center).

Don't take offense but: Is the distributor set ALL the way in? It's easy to mesh the cam gear but still have it sitting on top of the oil pump driveshaft. Pulled the coil wire when turning it over to see if hot spark is coming out? Then pulled a plug wire and checked spark there?

I'll shut up now...hang in there :confused:

[ColeTrickle]

You-bet...Michael. I was thinking about the Gilmer Run here in a little bit. The lifts on the way...still need tires, etc, etc :rolleyes: .
If I can swing it...they will speak of your rig and mine as the Harvard grad and the black sheep ;) .
Me being the black sheep of course or Beverly hilbillies or...you get the picture.

We'll trail soon.

[Banks]

JTF,I'm glad you are in a warm place now.[there is nothing worse than wrenching in the cold!].One more note,you said <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Placed #1 cylinder at TDC, took off valve cover. Springs for the #1 cylinder where released (uncompressed). The balancer line was at 10 o'clock.
<hr></blockquote>.You need to have the vale cover off first to be able to watch the valves[both springs will be closed[uncompressed] at BOTH "strokes" when the "balancer line" is at the TDC mark.Any spring movement[intake or exhaust]while moving the crankshaft "balancer line" two inches before or after the TDC mark is NOT the "stroke" that you want.You will be able to move the "line" back and forth past the TDC mark with NO spring movement and this IS where you want install the distributor.YOU WILL WIN!!! Marc :cool:

[Lindel]

Michael, when you get ready to do the cam change, let me know, since I've basically got one ready to install my self, I'll help you, you help me, and we can commiserate together!! :D

[jasonthomasfrance]

All righty... So here's what the plan is tonight... (I'm starting at around 3:30 and have to be out of the shop at 8:30)

1. Use a drill to spin oil pump, getting oil up into the engine.

2. Check cylinder compression, pray it holds steady on each one.

3. Remove pulley, harmonic balancer, timing cover, timing chain. Slide HB back on for reference. Line up to TDC checking to make sure when I do both springs on #1 cylinder do not move uncompressed from 2" before 2" after TDC on the HB which it's line cut in the top will be roughly at the 10 o'clock position, which correspondes to TDC marks on the casing/block... When that matches, put the timing chain on dot to dot. With everything on, loosely, turn the engine by hand 3-4 times back to TDC and make sure everything stayed lined up, and that the #1 piston is back to the top with no spring movement 2" before 2" after and springs are uncompressed.

Does that sound right? (almost sounds like I know what I'm doing :confused: :rolleyes: ) Anything to add to #3, or take away, do it in a different order?

ColeTrickle: It's amazing what circumstance will do. I figured I'd have another 6-8 months before I was ready for this level of comprehension and mech speaky... There will definitely be a write-up about a cam shaft swap for IFSJA!!

NXJC: Yep, the dizzy is all the way down. We had a problem earlier where the dizzy was jumping teeth. We'd put it in, turn the motor, take off the cap and the rotor was 180 from where we placed it. We figured that we hadn't pushed it in all the way... But that problem happened way earlier to all this.

Everyone: Thanks for putting up with me!

[Lindel]

Sounds like you've got it down, Jason. I feel for ya, man!!

By the time you're done with this, maybe Adam can go ahead and bump you up to a Master Mechanic!! :D

Let us know how it goes, and we can confuse the issue a little more with advice. ;)

[Banks]

JTF,1-I would not worry about compression test at this time and,2- if it were me I would get to "true" TDC [2" forward/2"back with no spring movement]before I ripped the cover off again.3-Then do oil pump prime/prelube[drill]4-Set the distributor in[rotor pointing to #1 wire]5-Pour a LITTLE gas down the carb and crank that baby up!!! Marc :cool:

[billyrb]

I NEED RESOLUTION!!!! This is agonizing watching from a-far and not knowing.....WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WAG???????

anxiously waiting.....
~ryan

[jasonthomasfrance]

It's probably like everything in life (or computers) "operator error" I just hope I can figure it out...

[64Trvlr]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jasonthomasfrance:
Does that sound right? (almost sounds like I know what I'm doing Anything to add to #3, or take away, do it in a different order? <hr></blockquote>

I would not crank or turn the engine over anymore. If you keep cranking the engine over you will ruin the cam, it may be bad now so don't make it worse but turning it over any more. I'd pull everything off the front and see if the cam and crank are in the correct position. After you check and make sure they are lined up button up the motor. DO NOT turn the engine over. Pre oil the engine, then with the engine at TDC ( which is where you are now ) stab the distributor hook up the plug wires, make sure gas is in the carb and idle screw is in several turns. Start it up.
Good luck..........
:cool:

[64Trvlr]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jasonthomasfrance:
Okay these engines are "four stroke" engines. A stroke being the movement of the piston (or rods?)
1. Compression
2. Exhaust
3. Intake
4. Ignition
<hr></blockquote>

The four strokes are:
1) intake
2) compression
3) power
4) exhaust

:cool:

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Yup thats it, but I like Pictures 64Travler. It confuses me to read! :D :D http://images.andale.com/f2/116/106/4651773/1014908516621_Understand4stroke.jpg

[64Trvlr]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:
Yup thats it, but I like Pictures 64Travler. It confuses me to read! [/IMG]<hr></blockquote>

And you don't have to move your lips either.......
:cool:

[Crazy_Jeepman]

WELL, That depends on the PICTURE!!! :D :D :D

[64Trvlr]

ROTFLMAO
:cool:

[Banks]

Jason,sent you an e-mail. Marc :cool:

[jasonthomasfrance]

64Trvlr: While that is a true statement, I really can't help having to turn the engine over. I'm going to have to do it. And I'm almost 100% certain they are not lined up correct. So I'll skip the cylinder compression checks... But we used almost 3 tubes of assembly lube for the cam and lifters. I'll be sure to spin the oil pump too.

Now here's an excellent question: How do you tell if your lobes are mashed or whatever? (bad cam)

[nxcj]

Sounds like you're going to pull the cover...probably the best idea...just cut to the chase and check. One thing that hasn't been said is that there is a good chance that the plugs have fouled during the journey. It would be worth the extra $8.00 to toss in new plugs for the eventual start up. You may also want to check the oil for gas in it. The P.O. of my Wag tried to start it for an extensive period with 2 inches of play in the T-chain (it was WAY off)...cylinders were washed down and the rings weren't functioning very well. About two pints of gas came out before the oil when I drained it.

Food for thought tongue.gif

-Nick

[jasonthomasfrance]

I already bought new plugs, Bosch Platinums. And I've alrady dropped the pan and completely changed oil...

[jasonthomasfrance]

Howdy!

I think I know what we did wrong in the beginning!! We lined the keys on the cam and crankshaft in the 12 o'clock position, and then put the timing gears on dot to dot. BIG mistake... I think the valves were on the right stroke, but the piston was coming down from TDC...

So we took the timing cover off... Turned the crankshaft to TDC, ensuring the piston was all the way up. This puts the key (not to be confused with the line cut in the harmonic balancer) actually at 2 o'clock position. Then turn the cam so the valves are uncompressed this puts it's key at the 12 o'clock position... Then put the timing gears on, lining up the dots. Then carefully take them off, and put the chain on. Don't bump anything! *grin* Then carefully put the gears on...

Once they are on, spin the crankshaft about 3-4 times watching the timing gear dots, valve springs, and piston. If everything matches on the 4th turn, taadaa you're done.

I put the timing over on tonight, but ran out of time to finish everything else. Don't know if I will get a chance to work on it Friday. May have to wait until Saturday...

Wish me luck! Hope everything works!!

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[Thomas DeBusk]

Been following and rooting for you. Looking forward to the exciting (relieving?) conclusion.

Lotsa luck!

Thomas

[jasonthomasfrance]

I wish I could work on it on today... But I think I'll have to wait until Sat... :mad:

[billyrb]

Well, at least you have found one of, if not THE, problem......HURRY UP AND FINISH!!!! It's driving me CRAZY not knowing if that fixed it!!!

I'm rootin' for ya, bud!

~ryan

[J4GRAND]

This thread is getting to be like a soap opera-
"Like oil through the rear main seal; so are the days of our Full Size Jeeps..."
I hope my R&R goes smoothly. Weather has gotten cold and snowy here the last week, so I'm in no rush. All I have left to do is take the block out of the truck, go to the machine shop, pick up more parts, spend more money, wait for my case of AMC blue engine paint (woo hoo), paint everything, reassemble, and hope I get things right. At least I have my trusty mechanic sidekick Sean helping me. He's rebuilt lots of motors, including a few dragstrip AMC 401s, so I have the utmost confidence we'll get it right the first time. It's amazing what friends will help you with when you say the magic words- Free food and beer.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Aw man... The shop is closed due to bad weather. For Tx that's a little ice on the roads... Hopefully later this afternoon it'll be open. I can't wait!!!! Must get grimy!!

[jeepbob]

BTW for those of you going to do your own cam swaps and get the timing set with the 3 keyways be sure to use the correct dot when timing your motor or you will be in the same boat.

[jasonthomasfrance]

She started!! For about a minute. Then the radiator sprung about 4 leaks... So a new radiator has to be bought... And the auto shop is closed on Mon & Tue. *sigh* Can't wait until Wed. At least she started!!

[Jeep Craze]

well jason,
I am curious. What did you do to make it start? Craig


*I think I'm getting adicted to this thread almost as bad as I am to ER*

[jasonthomasfrance]

Ahh... redface.gif Took off the timing chain cover, gears, etc... Placed everything at true TDC, then aligned the timing gears dot to dot. Put everything back together. Stabbed the dizzy (took over an hour to do it right). Troubleshot a wiring problem, got shocked by the dizzy (twice), and got it to cough and sputter! Put water in the radiator, and noticed the leaks!!!

FYI: TDC (for my 1976 Waggie) Indicators - Crankshaft key at roughly 2 o'clock, cam key at 12 o'clock with #1 cylinder valves uncompressed and pedestals should move. Piston at the top of it's stroke... The line cut into the top of the harmonic balancer should be close to 10 o'clock.

My problem was the guy who helped. He put the crankshaft key in the 12 o'clock position putting me at a number of degrees off TDC... Just enough to cause air to blow up through the carb... Not his fault, he'd never done a jeep, and I didn't know any better at the time...

Ahhh... lessons learned...

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: jasonthomasfrance ]</p>

[Jeep Craze]

Ok thanks Jason, i was just curious. Well look at it this way atleast you know now for next time. :D FYI its an AMC not a chevy there will adventualy be a next time. There will be a next time for all of us. Glad to hear you got it resolved though. Good luck w/ the rest of it and happy wheeling. Craig

[:AJ:]

Well? Is the wag running? I must know!!!! smile.gif

[jasonthomasfrance]

Not quite yet. I'm waiting on the radiator to come in the mail, and the auto shop to open up. Both of which should happen tomorrow. So by tomorrow night I hope to be driving around!

[jasonthomasfrance]

She's alive!! I drove her home tonight!! And tomorrow I drive her to work! I didn't plug up the exhaust/emissions ports... So it sounds like poopie...

But she runs!!

[Michael]

Other than the poopie....how is the performance???????? Better same... I am planning on doing mine soon also. Do you have better get up and gosies????

[Michael]

BTW....congrats.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Ah... Didn't want to step on it tonight... :D Being I want to give up the rental tomorrow. Gonna cost me 5Cs for the dang rental... :mad:

So I probably won't step on it until the wife's jeep is out of the tranny shop. Which is costing me more then 1G...

[jeepbob]

OUCH!!!! Now you know why my wife no longer complains about having too many cars.

[jasonthomasfrance]

So this morning I stood on the gas a little. Just between 0-35 a couple times. She can move up there pretty quick. Feels like she's stronger and quicker, but that just may be the geek in me. tongue.gif

I really need to plug up those two exhaust type holes. It is LOUD. Can't I take off the emissions thingy off the exhaust mainfold, and use the existing bolts to plug the holes? What's the best way to block those off?

And when I get Thorley headers, will they come with those holes?

The jeep is timed right (pretty close to 8B), now I just need to break out the vacuum diagrams and plug up what I don't need... I'll but she'll run a little better than. Still getting some mild backfire (once or twice on idle pushing the gas). And there is smoe hesitation where the engine almost dies when I try to go. But I think that was talked about in earlier posts, so I'm going to do some research. But I think I should give it a couple more days of driving, do an oil change on Friday/Saturday, put some fuel system cleaner in, and she'll probably be right as rain. I'll have to see if my gaskets are leaking though...

*laugh* We had to do some "southern engineering" on the DUI dizzy. The vacuum and electrical are placed just wrong enough next to the water pump that you can't advance or retard very well. So we ust ground off the little flange/nub that made the dizzy go on only one way so we could turn the cap whatever way we wanted...

Thanks for everyone's tips and thoughts! Anything else to add?

[jasonthomasfrance]

Arrghh!!! So I got up to 70 and white smoke starts billowing out the engine bay... Turns out the passenger side valve cover wasn't tightened all the way. Pulled over tightened it up... But I think oil still leaking a bit from one of the bolts...

AND THEN later that night all my wiring burned out on the exhaust manifold... *sigh* Three hours of work in the subway parking lot... Fortunately it was right next to an AutoZone...

I was going to replace the passenger side valve gasket tonight, but I don't think I'll temp fate.

[shredby4]

Jason,
Geeeeeez...you just can't catch a break can you? I'm glad you got it running finally. Like just about everybody else on here I am planning on a cam swap too. Plus headers and an Edlebrock intake. Plus an adapter plate for a q-jet. Well, Offenhauser does have a q-jet manifold but it's over $250! Now I'm thinking... I may let a pro swap cams for me and do the rest of that stuff. I don't want to go through what you did.

[Lindel]

Jason, I'm glad that you finally got it going again! On the valve gasket, try the yellow weather strip adhesive, from 3M. Works wonders for me, and no more leaks on the passenger side (up front, I'll bet).

On the wiring, I can't help from here, but if it's still an issue the next time I see you, I'll look then.

[jasonthomasfrance]

Hey! That's exactly where it was! Passenger front (the first/second bolt). I swapped out the gasket, and it seems to be fixed just fine.

But now I think the oil pan is leaking!!! I'll swap the gasket tomorrow or Wed when I do an oil change...

The wires are all fixed up, only took about three hours of splicing and guessing...

Thanks for all the help guys! FYI the cam swap would have been MUCH easier, if I had paid attention to TDC!!! This is definitely do-able for normal shadetree mechs. And you guys can read how much my lingo changed from the start to the end. I was not very mechanical. It's really not that bad. Just takes a while...