Riddle me this Batman

[marcd]

Okay, I had done the HEI conversion but it was running rough. It was timed about 12BDC. The dizzy cap was pushed against the power steering pump and I was worried about it putting pressure on the cap. I couldn't figure out why it was running rough so I did the following:

Rotateed the dizzy/cap and moved the wires to correspond
checked for vacuum leaks - found none
replaced the PCV and the hoses attached to it

Now it runs pretty good. But, and here's the kicker, I put the timing light on it and the mark is nowhere to be seen! I'm not too concerned because it's running well, but it's baffling me.

Any thoughts? And would replacing the PCV have much of an effect on how the engine is running?

[will e]

Yes. You are putting the timing light on the wrong plug wire.

[Stuka]

I think he has the distributer off a tooth. I actualy had to do this on purpose on my cherokee for the distributer too clear the belt for the PS pump. You just have to remember to rotate the wires around to correspond to the rotor.

[marcd]

I triple checked that I had the light on the #1 plug (of course, I could have had it on the wrong plug before I rotated the cap).

In terms of the dizzy being off a tooth . . .I actually never removed the dizzy, I just rotated it and then moved the plug wires over to correspond to the new position. It seems to be running too well if it was off a tooth. Would it run if it was off a tooth?

The wrong wire makes the most sense, but as I said, I triple checked that. So unless I timed it to the wrong wire the first time (In which case I don't think it would run) I don't think that's it. Very strange, but as I said, it's running pretty good so I'm not losing sleep.

This weekend I'm going to crawl aroundand try to find the mark. I already looked under, so I think it is going to be somehwere in the area of 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock. I'm also going to play with the timing some more and see if it shows up.

BTW - It's not pinging or dieseling but hesitates a little. I'm thinking I'll advance it a little bit. Does that sound right?

Thanks again for the help.

[joe]

Originally posted by marcd:
This weekend I'm going to crawl aroundand try to find the mark. I already looked under, so I think it is going to be somehwere in the area of 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock. The little plate w/timing marks will be at about the 10 o'clock position.

[Matthew W. Woodruff]

Just a quick question before I do this myself:

Did you do the HEI conversion or the TFI conversion (with the Ford coil and Adapt-a-Cap)?

Do I have to worry about clearance issues with the HEI conversion as well as with TFI?

[marcd]

I did the HEI, it also has an oversize dizzy cap and there is a protrusion from the coil in the cap. It makes it tough to find a spot where the the cap won't hit the power steering pump, but not that big of a deal.

Joe, that's the problem, it's not at 10 o'clock. That's what is driving me nuts.

[joe]

It's there Marc. The TDC-5-A10 scale is part of the timing cover...it can't fall off. ;)

[marcd]

My bad joe, I didn't realize you were talking about the the plate with the guage on it. That's there. It's the timing mark (i.e. painted line on the balancer) that isn't showing up anywhere near the plate.

At the risk of sounding stupid, and since I don't have my timing light instructions nearby, I do hook it up to the #1 cylinder, right???

[joe]

The mark on the balancer is just a groove cut into it. Clean well and dig out the gunk in it and then paint over it or use as is. Depends on where the crank is when you shut the motor down as to where the mark is when shut off. Could be in any of the possible 360 degrees of a circle. Yup No.1 cyl (front drivers side).

[oldyellowwagoneer]

You probably need to advance it some more. Dennis

[Rogue]

if you timed the distributor originally by putting your finger in the spark plug hole sometimes you can mistake the exhaust stroke for the compression stroke - ask me how i know ;)

as far as the distributor goes it can be a "tooth" off and run right because its not really a tooth off. with the cam timed to the crank there is the spot where the rotor is "supposed" to point to - the truth is you can point the rotor wherever the heck you want to because the cam is still timed to the crank - just make whatever tower the rotor points to number 1 - while not "technically" correct it just doesn't matter cause no matter how you put the dizzy in it won't change the cam timing

yea #1 for sure not a dumb question at all if you've ever worked on an international gas engine, say in a Scout, they are timed off of #8

now I'm not sure about this but I do believe there are two different timing cover designs but I wouldn't know if there timing marks are in different positions or not - if you haven't changed your timing cover or balancer than this wouldn't matter anyways

[marcd]

Thanks folks. But some further clarification . . .
1) Everything is fine with the mark on the balancer and the gauge on the timing cover. I just got confused when I first read joe's post (I didn't read it right). When I said I'm going to look for the mark, I meant where it is while it's running since it is not anywhere near the 12BDC area. The mark is on the balancer, I used it to time it before re-did the HEI.

2) The mark was around 12BDC when i timed it with the new HEI dizzy. It ran like crap, so I rotated the dizzy and cap, WITHOUT REMOVING IT. Then I just re-did the wires to compensate for the rotation. And now, with the timing light, the mark is nowhere to be found. But it runs a lot better. When I said I thought it was in the 12 o'clock to four o'clock range (meaning WAY too far advanced to be possible) I just meant that was the only place I couldn't readily see with the light, so it must be hiding there. That's why it makes so much sense that I was using the wrong wire . . but I wasn't. So if it is a tooth off, it was before too, but the timing mark seemed to be right.

Scoutgrl, I think your right about advancing. Since the light is doing me no good, I'll advance until it pings and then back it off. That will probably be as good as I can get.

My theories so far are that it was screwed up to begin with and it just coincidentally worked out before, OR, I'm just having a major league brain fart.

I'm thinking brain fart, that's usually it.

BTW - I didn't install the HEI at #1 TDC, I just installed it in the same position as the old one.

[ November 24, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: marcd ]

[klank]

good luck.

[bigrob]

You do have the vac advance disabled....right?

[Stuka]

How did you convert to an HEI without pulling the distributer?! :confused:

[marcd]

I did have the vac advance hose pulled and plugged.

I did pull the original distributor and timed the new HEI to 12BDC. But when I redid the HEI by rotating the dizzy, without removing it, and moving the wires - that's when the timing mark left the building.

Anyone have a guess as to what timing range an engine could start and run, i.e. 2BDC to 25BDC. Maybe when i time it by ear and get it closer the mark will show up. If not, oh well, it's running!

[1studiac]

Sounds easier to start over, I am trying to figure out why you changed the wires around when all you did was either advance or retard the timing. I would start over pull the whole thing get the no.1 piston at tdc and go from there. You dont want to be way off or pre-ignition will eat that engine up. Sounds like you might have had some wires crossed to start with.

Stuka, he pulled the point ing. replaced with hei and it ran like crap so he adv. the timing and moved the wires around.

[Stuka]

if you rotated the wires around the cap, then its not going to show up. The distributer was to be lined up witht he wires in the corect place for it to be of any use.

[marcd]

Technically, all the wires are in the same place relative to the rotor, they are just occupying different spots in the cap. So that shouldn't effect the timing . . .I think. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.

To put it another way . . .Originally the rotor was pointing directly at the #1 post/wire. I rotated the dizzy, clockwise, about a quarter turn, so the cap was in a better position. I moved the #1 wire to the post that the rotor now points to (and moved all the wires accordingly). So the only thing that changed is the cap position, but not the #1 wire. So the timing mark should be uneffected, I think?

Man, I hate word problems. It's like taking the SAT all over again.

1studiac - you're probably right that starting over may solve this. But since it's running well, it's not worth it (until I start going insane thinking about it.)

[ November 24, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: marcd ]

[oldyellowwagoneer]

Originally posted by marcd:
Technically, all the wires are in the same place relative to the rotor, they are just occupying different spots in the cap. So that shouldn't effect the timing . . .I think. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.

To put it another way . . .Originally the rotor was pointing directly at the #1 post/wire. I rotated the dizzy, clockwise, about a quarter turn, so the cap was in a better position. I moved the #1 wire to the post that the rotor now points to (and moved all the wires accordingly). So the only thing that changed is the cap position, but not the #1 wire. So the timing mark should be uneffected, I think?

(you're correct)

Man, I hate word problems. It's like taking the SAT all over again.

1studiac - you're probably right that starting over may solve this. But since it's running well, it's not worth it (until I start going insane thinking about it.)
(Don't bother you're fine just advance a little and the mark should come back. Dennis

[Rogue]

So the timing mark should be uneffected, I think?
right you are - like i said you can make #1 cylinder be any post on the cap that you like